Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions — ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Mr. Speaker: It will be a great help if hon. Members who are called to ask supplementary questions will limit themselves to one question.

Oral Answers to Questions — ENERGY

Departmental Staff (Technical Qualifications)

Mr. Eggar: asked the Secretary of State for Energy whether his Department has a need for technically qualified staff who would be seconded from the major oil companies.

The Minister of State, Department of Energy (Mr. Hamish Gray): In the oil sector, the Department's main requirement for technical staff concerns the exploration for, appraisal, development and production of offshore oil and gas deposits. Commercially confidential information is involved and, whilst I do not rule out secondment of technically qualified staff from the oil companies to my Department, care and caution in their deployment and utilisation would obviously be necessary.

Mr. Eggar: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. In view of the rapid pace of technological change in the oil industry, does he agree that it will be necessary to ensure that the technical officers in his Department are seconded to the oil industry if the reverse cannot happen?

Mr. Gray: I can assure my hon. Friend that the closest co-operation will continue between those employed by my Department and the companies within the oil industry.

Mr. Gordon Wilson: Has the Minister approved the massive advertisement that is appearing in the press under the title
Squeezing the most out of Britain's North Sea assets",
in which the Department of Energy purports to engage many highly paid staff, mainly in London? Will he attempt to explain why these staffs should be recruited from London and not from Glasgow, where the British National Oil Corporation has its headquarters?

Mr. Gray: The staff that is being recruited will not necessarily remain in London all the time. There are certain conditions that may necessitate some of the staff being moved to Glasgow, or even Aberdeen. My Department will give consideration to the most appropriate place for the staff to be located when it is engaged.

Mr. Viggers: To what extent in future will the Government be relying on advice from the BNOC?

Mr. Gray: The Government do not intend to continue the statutory obligation involving the corporation. Advice from the corporation will be received in exactly the same way as advice from other oil companies.

Energy Saving

Mr. Blackburn: asked the Secretary of State for Energy what target he has set for energy saving.

The Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. John Moore): There is no formal quantitative target for overall energy saving. However, the Government are fully committed to international efforts to conserve energy. This was an essential feature of the agreements reached at the Strasbourg and Tokyo summits.

Mr. Blackburn: Is my hon. Friend aware that, although the House will welcome the statement that has been made, especially the implementation of the Conservative Party election manifesto, it will wish to know the factors that he is taking into consideration in the energy-saving programme?

Mr. Moore: My hon. Friend is considering the longer term. We assume savings of approximately 20 per cent, through added conservation methods to the end of


the century. We envisage savings in industry of about 28 per cent, or more. In the domestic sector, we estimate that there will be savings of 27½ per cent., in transport 34½ per cent., and in the commercial and public sector about 22 per cent.

Mr. Forman: As an additional contribution, especially in the commercial and business sector, will my hon. Friend consider the possibility of amending the Offices. Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963, which makes legislative provision for temperatures in commercial premises?

Mr. Moore: We are examining any areas that inhibit conservation and any areas in which the relaxation of regulations may lead to improvement.

Mr. Palmer: Will the hon. Gentleman look again at some of the detailed recommendations made by the Select Committee on Science and Technology on energy saving about two and a half to three years ago?

Mr. Moore: I would be happy to reexamine those recommendations.

Mr. Hannam: Will the Minister examine the pricing of diesel fuel in view of the statement that it is 15 per cent, more efficient than petrol?

Mr. Moore: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Oil from Coal

Mr. Eadie: asked the Secretary of State for Energy what financial contribution the Government are making towards the funding of pilot projects to process oil from coal.

Mr. John Moore: The terms of the Government's agreement with the NCB are to provide up to £800,000 to assist in design and feasibility studies on two 25 ton per day pilot plants.

Mr. Eadie: Since the House generally welcomes the Government's attitude in implementing part of the report of the working party that I chaired, and since the Government must have some say about the site shown, why is the hon. Gentleman so shy about revealing the sums of money that can be allocated? The previous Government undertook to allocate £20 million for these two projects.

Mr. Moore: The present Government, within less than a week of taking office, confirmed and awarded the design for the particular project in question. It would be premature, having set up such a design study, whose views we hope to see in the early part of 1980, to make judgments at this stage about money. We should await the study.

Sir Anthony Meyer: The decision to put these pilot plants at Point of Ayr colliery in my constituency has been generally welcomed. It is taken as a tribute to the excellent record in output and labour relations at that pit.

Mr. Moore: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. However, I would not wish to deny that other coal mining areas have displayed equal ability to that shown by Point of Ayr.

Mr. Roy Hughes: Our road transport system which carries the vast bulk of our essential supplies will never be fired by nuclear energy. Is not the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) a good one, bearing in mind the abundance of coal in this country? Does not the Minister agree that this is where the money should be invested?

Mr. Moore: I am sure that all those interested in energy matters would not deny, through their support of advanced and developing work in coal, the value of resources that exist elsewhere, including nuclear energy.

Mr. Dalyell: Have the Government considered the advantages of Boness, Kinneil and Grangemouth site which has both the Kinneil colliery and the Grangemouth refinery?

Mr. Moore: All these matters were taken into consideration by the NCB. I must stress that this time the Government are talking only about the recommendation for the location and siting of the pilot plants as opposed to the commercial and demonstration plants.

Fuel Supplies

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he is satisfied with the adequacy of fuel supplies to meet all demands in the forthcoming winter.

Mr. John Moore: Given normal seasonal weather and no interruptions in production or supply, I do not foresee any general difficulty in meeting our fuel requirements this winter. However, the need for exercising the maximum restraint in our energy consumption remains as important as ever.

Mr. Hamilton: What estimate has been made of the effect on the United Kingdom of the threatened limits in production of oil in Saudi Arabia? What will be the effect on demand of the swingeing increases in price likely to take place in all three fuels—coal, gas and electricity?

Mr. Moore: The first question refers to supplies to this country. Oil stocks at CEGB power stations are regarded as adequate given normal conditions. On the second part of the question, a more rational use of price in the valuation of energy as a rare resource in our society will be a feature in good long-term conservation.

Mr. Budgen: Does not my hon. Friend agree that far more attention should be paid to the price mechanism in respect of fuel? If that was done, particularly in respect of gas, it would give to the producers of gas a higher price which would justify them in putting in the pipes and other capital equipment so that it would no longer be economic to continue the wasteful flaring of gas in the North Sea.

Mr. Moore: It is clear that consistency in energy pricing is rational. Clearly, however, movements towards such consistency must be careful and gradual.

Mr. Ashton: The Minister's statement today is as ambiguous as ever. Many industrialists are genuinely disturbed by the stories they keep reading in the press and by speculation about a massive increase in the price of gas this winter, or that the British Gas Corporation will not be able to supply its full amount to existing installations. Will the Minister make a concrete statement about whether the price is going up, so that people know where they stand?

Mr. Moore: This question was directed to supplies and availability. Anything that encourages people to assume that there will be difficulties might add

to the problem. We refer to the other question later.

Nuclear Safety

Mr. Waldegrave: asked the Secretary of State for Energy when he expects to make a statement on the implications of the Kemeny report on the nuclear accident at Harrisburg.

Mr. Whitehead: asked the Secretary of State for Energy what assessment he has made of the Kemeny commission's report on the Three Mile Island disaster with reference to Great Britain's nuclear programme; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. David Howell): The Three Mile Island accident undoubtedly has important lessons for us. My Department is seeking a careful evaluation of the Kemeny commission findings. The Health and Safety Executive and the CEGB have been doing their own studies and I have asked for these studies, together with their views of the implications of the Kemeny findings for the United Kingdom, to be published as soon as practicable.

Mr. Waldegrave: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that a preliminary analysis of the Kemeny report appears to show recommendations for a movement in America towards our philosophy of regulation in matters of safety and away from legalistic arrangements that have been traditionally undertaken?

Mr. Howell: My hon. Friend is correct. At first reading, the Kemeny commission report is mainly concerned with regulatory procedures and attitudes and organisation within the United States. Its concern seems to point away from present arrangements in the United States towards those that might be broadly similar to arrangements enjoyed in this country.

Mr. Whitehead: Bearing in mind that the Kemeny commission said that the nuclear industry must dramatically change its attitude to safety in nuclear power stations, and the practical delay that will occur in issuing new licences for power stations in the United States, will the right hon. Gentleman disavow the


Prime Minister's infatuation with the expansion of the nuclear power programme in this country as foolish and dangerous?

Mr. Howell: It is recognised in most countries, and certainly by this Government, that it would be an unjustifiable risk to plan our future without a further expansion of nuclear power in some form. But any developments in reactor systems or new designs would have to be preceded by detailed safety clearance, taking into account all possible lessons from the views that we publish and our evaluation of the Kemeny report. That must be common sense.

Mr. Ancram: Will my right hon. Friend, when he considers the Kemeny report, look particularly at the recommendation that, for the present at least, nuclear power stations should be built as far from population centres as practicable?

Mr. Howell: I have asked for an evaluation on these matters from the Health and Safety Executive and from the CEGB. We will examine all their recommendations and evaluate them in the light of our own circumstances and our own plans inside our own nation.

Mr. Benn: Will not the right hon. Gentleman admit that anxieties about the pressure water reactor and its inherent safety features, or lack of safety features, first drawn to the attention of the public by Sir Alan Cottrell and now confirmed by Harrisburg and by apparent cracks experienced in French reactors, mean that the Government must make clear that they will not order a PWR in Britain until all the assessments in this country have been published, enabling everyone, including the House of Commons, to examine the factors that are involved?

Mr. Howell: I have already indicated the publications that will be made. At the same time, it must be right that full safety clearance is given by our well-tried and laid down safety procedures, through the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, before any new reactor design is placed before an inquiry in this country. That is understood. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman shares my view.

Mr. Eggar: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the reactor system used at

Harrisburg was different from the system proposed here, being a Westinghouse system as opposed to Babcock and Wilcox?

Mr. Howell: My hon. Friend is correct. It was a United States Babcock and Wilcox design. There are a number of other designs of pressure water reactor in the Western world. If the plan was to activate a licence with Westinghouse, a different technology would be involved. I again emphasise that anything built here would be subject to our own safety clearances and our own standards laid down by our own Nuclear Installations Inspectorate.

Mr. Ashton: Will the Secretary of State look at that part of the Kemeny report which deals with public information? It states that the public should have full access immediately to any possible information when a nuclear mishap takes place. Is he aware that there has been the feeling in the past in this country that when there has been a nuclear incident an attempt has been made to cover up rather than release the fullest possible news to the public?

Mr. Howell: Yes. I see no advantage in an approach which involves a cover-up of vital information. I will look at the particular element in the Kemeny report to which the hon. Member referred. It is certainly my view that there should be full information and discussion on incidents and developments involving any hazard to the public. That must be the basis upon which confidence is established when we go forward with a nuclear programme in this country, as we must.

Alternative Energy Sources (Research)

Mr. Stoddart: asked the Secretary of State for Energy how much was spent in 1978 on research into nuclear energy and how much on research into alternative forms of energy, including solar, wave and wind power.

The Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Norman Lamont): In the financial year 1978–79 the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority spent £131·9 million net on nuclear energy research and development, of which £l0·8 million net was for research into nuclear


fusion and plasma physics. My Department's expenditure on research and development programmes on alternative forms of energy in this period was £2·4 million and this will rise to £6·9 million in 1979–80.

Mr. Stoddart: Is there not a huge disparity between the amount we are spending on research into nuclear energy and the amount spent on looking into alternative forms? Is there not a danger of our putting all our eggs into one nuclear basket? Ought not the Government to spend a lot more on research into alternative forms of energy, particularly in view of the doubts about the safety of nuclear reactors?

Mr. Lamont: The differece between the two figures reflects two factors. The first is that the nuclear industry and its research programme have been in existence for 30 years, whereas the other programmes have existed for about six years. Secondly, the figures reflect the state of the art and the advice we have about where the best chance of a breakthrough in getting cheap sources of energy lies. The hon. Gentleman will have seen from my answer that we are planning to increase the amount spent.

Mr. Forman: I accept the validity of what my hon. Friend said, but will he give a firm inlication that when the commercial development stage of some of these alternative sources of energy is reached the Government will be prepared to back them as appropriate?

Mr. Lamont: My hon. Friend is, of course, right that when these projects get either to the demonstration stage or near to the commercial stage greater sums of money will be called for, and obviously the Government will be willing to examine them. Several projects involving alternative sources of energy have reached the stage of early development, such as the deep bore hole in Hampshire. We are prepared to support projects that have reached that stage.

Mr. Hooley: In the light of the pathetic result from throwing money into the AGR programme, which has given us one and a half power stations in 15 years, is it not time for a redirection of effort with money being spent on alternative sources of energy?

Mr. Lamont: The AGR programme has also given us cheap electricity at a cost that compares with electricity from other sources, particularly coal. It is the CEGB's view that nuclear electricity is fully competitive.

Mr. Eadie: Ought not the Minister to inform the House that he accepts that it would be unwise to scrimp the budget on alternative sources of energy in order to provide a larger budget on nuclear power, bearing in mind that money spent on research into alternative sources will ensure future renewable sources of energy?

Mr. Lamont: Yes, but I have already pointed out that we are planning to increase the budget to a higher figure than that which the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) supported when he was in Government.

Mr. Alan Blackshaw

Mr. Dalyell: asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the action he has taken in relation to a former senior civil servant, Mr. Alan Blackshaw of Friarsbrae, Linlithgow, West Lothian.

Mr. David Howell: As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Mr. Dalyell: May I express my appreciation of the personal attention which the Secretary of State has found time to devote to the problems of my constituent? Does the Minister agree that my constituent left the Department of Energy with an unblemished reputation and a record of excellent service?

Mr. Howell: I am glad to be able fully to confirm what the hon. Member has said, as the longer written answer that I have circulated makes clear. There was no question of any blame attaching to the senior civil servant. Mis-statements have been corrected by a press statement and recorded in the minutes of the published evidence of the Public Accounts Committee.

Following is the answer:
I am glad to place it on the record again that he resigned from the Department on 10 August 1979 for personal reasons wholly un-


connected with the administration of the interest relief grant scheme—there was of course never any suggestion by the Department or anyone in it that any such connection existed. He has also both personally and in the course of the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee on 31 October received an apology for distress caused to himself and his family as a result of a misstatement to that Committee that an undersecretary in Glasgow had been reprimanded. This misstatement was corrected both in a press statement by the Department on 18 September and in the minutes of evidence taken by the Committee which have since been published.

Energy Policy (Franco-British Co-operation)

Sir Anthony Meyer: asked the Secretary of State for Energy whether he will hold discussions with the French Minister of Energy in order to examine the possibility of closer Franco-British co-operation on energy policy, particularly in the nuclear field.

Mr. David Howell: I met M. Giraud, the French Minister of Industry whose responsibilities include energy, on 19 November, and we discussed the possibility of Franco-British co-operation in the energy field including nuclear power.

Sir A. Meyer: Does my right hon. Friend agree that with our vast reserves of energy we have much to contribute on this subject and are therefore in a position of strength in our negotiations with the French in particular and the European Community in general? Does he agree that we should be prepared to use that position in order to further positive co-operation?

Mr. Howell: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. We are in a position of strength. We should be careful, however, not to entangle the position in which we have a clear case that stands on its merits with the particular aspects of energy that my hon. Friend mentioned and which should be pursued on the basis of their merits where collaboration pays off.

Mr. Palmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about three years ago it was intended to proceed with the commercial fast breeder reactor, subject to public inquiry? Is that policy now altered, and is it the intention to proceed

with commercial fast breeder development in collaboration with the French?

Mr. Howell: I certainly believe that the fast breeder reactor has a place in the nuclear future. The United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and other parties have explored the possibilities of collaboration with the French on future developments in this area. I expect to receive a report from the Authority before Christmas. I shall then be considering that issue.

Mr. Grieve: Does my right hon. Friend agree that on energy we have not only much to give but, where France is concerned, probably much to receive, particularly on nuclear matters? Will he bear that in mind in his future discussions with his French opposite number?

Mr. Howell: Yes, I will bear that in mind both in respect of thermal reactor co-operation, should we go along that particular path, and, as I have already said, on the fast breeder reactor as well.

Dr. Owen: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he has an option of collaboration not just with France but with West Germany, on the fast breeder reactor, and with the United States? Will he give an assurance that there would be no question of entering into a partnership with France in which Britain was clearly seen to be a junior partner?

Mr. Howell: There is no need to see this issue in exclusively bilateral terms. One can imagine arrangements for tripartite co-operation. The French still have their links on the pressure water system with Westinghouse, of which I believe they will not be free until 1982. If we decide to go along that path there will be certain time constraints to be considered. However, co-operation need not be exclusively on a bilateral basis.

Solar Energy

Mr. Bowden: asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he is satisfied with the level of research by his Department into the potential and actual use of solar energy.

Mr. John Moore: I am satisfied that my Department's research and development programme, when taken together with those supported by other Government Departments and by the European


Economic Commission, to which the United Kingdom subscribes, is commensurate with the likely potential of solar energy.

Mr. Bowden: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the use of solar energy will be for secondary and support purposes? What consultation has my hon. Friend had with the car and building industries to see how this form of energy can be developed in the future?

Mr. Moore: There is continuing consultation involving not only the Department of Energy but the Department of Industry and the Department of the Environment with the industries that my hon. Friend mentioned. I accept that this is an area in which there is already investment by the Government in research, monitoring and development, to the tune of £1 million this year.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Is not research into solar energy in this country likely to be hampered by the Government's economic policies which mean that the country is likely to be living under a permanent cloud for the next two or three years?

Mr. Moore: The reverse is the case. The rational pricing policies of the Government have seen a major increase in interest in, and examination of, solar energy. There is in this area a modest expansion at small business level.

European Community (Energy Policy)

Mr. Knox: asked the Secretary of State for Energy whether he is satisfied with progress towards the development of an EEC energy policy.

Mr. Norman Lamont: The main thrust on energy developments comes from member States' national energy programmes, supplemented by action at community level on matters of shared concern. Acting together, we can also all make an important and effective contribution to the discussion of international energy issues.

Mr. Knox: In view of the seriousness of the world energy position and the consequent urgency that an EEC energy policy should be determined, does my hon. Friend agree that, so far, progress has been pathetically slow? What

initiatives do the Government intend to take that might lead to the development of a common energy policy in the EEC?

Mr. Lamont: One of the most important things that needs to be done is to get solidarity in the Community on the consumption of energy and energy imports into the Community. Progress has been made on that. Import targets have been agreed up to the year 1985. The United Kingdom Government play a constructive part in the Energy Council. One proposal that we put forward recently was that for coal. We are anxious that a European coal policy should be developed, which would be of great advantage to this country.

Mr. Hardy: While welcoming the effort to secure a sensible coal policy may I ask the Minister to make it very clear to Europe that it cannot expect to benefit from British oil reserves throughout the 1980s?

Mr. Lamont: We make it quite clear to our Community partners what we expect the profile of production of oil from the North Sea to be. However, these are matters within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom Government.

Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the Minister confirm that his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will reject the German claim that North Sea oil should be sold to the EEC at lower than market prices?

Mr. Lamont: Yes. That would be to nobody's benefit. The North Sea oil price is determined by world market forces. If we made an effort to suppress it below those levels it would merely mean that other people would buy that oil and on-sell it at higher prices. That would not be to anybody's advantage.

Mr. Eggar: Will my hon. Friend confirm that, subject to satisfactory feasibility studies, the Government will look favourably upon the construction of a cross-Channel gas pipeline link?

Mr. Lamont: I shall note what my hon. Friend said and shall certainly discuss that.

Oil

Mr. Greville Janner: asked the Secretary of State for Energy when he now expects that the United Kingdom will be a net exporter of oil.

Mr. Gray: On present prospects, the future rate of the build-up of North Sea oil production is expected to result in net self-sufficiency some time during 1980.

Mr. Janner: Surely the Minister could be more precise as to exactly when next year we are likely to be self-sufficient? Can he at least assure the House that when we are self-sufficient we shall keep enough oil for our own use and needs before we start exporting it elsewhere?

Mr. Gray: On the first point, it is extremely difficult to forecast exactly when we shall be self-sufficient, but it is expected to be during the second half of 1980. It is difficult to give the over-the-year position. On the second point, I confirm to the hon. and learned Gentleman that we shall do as he suggests.

Mr. Rost: While welcoming the coming increase in oil supplies, may I ask my hon. Friend nevertheless to look at the serious loss of exchange from which we are suffering because too much oil is being refined in Rotterdam while our refinery industry is working below capacity, with oil then being reimported into this country at the spot market prices?

Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend will appreciate that we have frequent consultations with the oil companies on the subject. We do our utmost to ensure that the assurances given by our predecessor are adhered to in this way.

Mining Industry (New Entrants)

Mr. Welsh: asked the Secretary of State for Energy what is his estimate of the number of new entrants into the mining industry over the next 10 years which will be needed under the requirements of EEC Document 7855/9.

Mr. John Moore: This is a matter for the National Coal Board and I am asking the chairman to write to the hon. Gentleman. However, it is encouraging to note that recruitment so far this year has more than made up for wastage, despite the extra outflow arising from the last stage in the progressive introduction of the early retirement scheme.

Mr. Welsh: May I thank the Minister for that reply? May I ask him for another answer, as we discussed the documents at some length but no miners'

Member of Parliament was called? Therefore, as I think that it is the duty of the Minister to reply, will he answer this question? Is the Minister aware—as I respectfully suggest—that Britain is the most efficient coal-producing country in the EEC if not in all Europe? Is the Minister aware that West Germany will not now be able to fulfil its obligations under the 7855/9 EEC document, as it cannot recruit miners into the West German pits?
Will the Minister give a reply to the House with regard to his letter on 4 October to Commissioner Brunner on his request that 250 million European units of account per year should be spent on coal-producing industries within the EEC? Will he say how much Britain will receive?

Mr. Moore: The hon. Gentleman is aware of the serious nature of the coal industry and the way in which it is regarded by hon. Members on both sides of the House. I am sure that he will be happy to know that I am very much aware of the comments he made in the first part of his question. It is exciting for our country to know—looking specifically at the recruitment question that was raised—that in the first 31 weeks of our fiscal year, in terms of the coal industry, we have seen an increase in recruitment of 42 per cent. Within that we have seen an increase in new adult recruitment of 77½ per cent.
Of course at this stage I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman's final question about the initiative of my right hon. Friend with Commissioner Brunner. When he receives a response he will be happy to come to the House with it.

Mr. Dudley Smith: If at the end of the day there are not enough entrants forthcoming, will my hon. Friend say what the position will be over the importation of coal into this country?

Mr. Moore: I thought that I drew the attention of the House to the excellent pattern of recruitment. To some extent that pattern has been going on for some years. It has been masked somewhat by the heavy wastage caused by the early retirement scheme. To that extent we now have a series of years when excellent recruitment happily continues.

Dr. Owen: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that to run down the coking coal industry would have grave implications and be against the policy of the EEC? Will he confirm that there are considerable subsidies for coking coal within the EEC? Will he give an assurance that he is not opposed in principle to such a subsidy? Will he confirm that if the present 2 million tonnes of coking-coal contracts were to be let either to North America or Australia, that would put at risk thousands of jobs in the industry and be a grave step, for it would undermine confidence in the coalmining industry?

Mr. Moore: I do not think that this is an appropriate time to go into considerable details on this point other than by accepting the points that the right hon. Gentleman makes on the importance, for our long-term energy and coal future, of the coking industry of this country. To the extent that there are current debates going on between two of our nationalised industries—the NCB and British Steel—it would be inappropriate at this time to make any further comment.

Mr. Adley: Is it not a fact that increased productivity recently in the mines has coincided with the reduction in the level of direct taxation? Will my hon. Friend welcome this evidence that the coal miners know what is good for them? Will he seek confirmation that my right hon, and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to continue this process?

Mr. Moore: I am delighted that my hon. Friend drew attention to the increase in productivity in our coal areas. There has been a substantial increase of over 3 per cent, in the past few months. Obviously those of us who understand that initiative is rewarded, especially through reductions in taxation, are delighted to see such increased productivity.

Dr. Owen: The Minister did not answer on the question of principle. Will he give an assurance that the Government are not opposed in principle to granting a subsidy for coking coal, either through BSC, with a revision of its financial targets, or to the NCB?

Mr. Moore: The Government obviously have their minds open at all times to such matters. It would be completely improper, at a time when negotiations

are going on between the National Coal Board and British Steel, for the Government to say any more on the matter.

Depletion Policy

Mr. Gordon Wilson: asked the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on oil depletion policy.

Mr. Kenneth Carlisle: asked the Secretary of State for Energy when he expects to make a statement on the Government's depletion policy.

Mr. Gray: We can expect to achieve net self-sufficiency in oil during the course of next year. Depletion policy is kept under continuing review in the light of production prospects thereafter and all other relevant factors. I hope we shall be able to make a statement to the House in due course.

Mr. Wilson: I accept that the Varley assurances, given so recklessly by the previous Government, have allowed the oil companies an unnecessary bonanza in relation to oil production, but will the Minister agree that the formula he has just put forward to the House is meaningless as it stands, and that there is an urgent need for a depletion policy to be evolved to take care of the gap between supply and demand which will emerge in the early 1990s?

Mr. Gray: I accept what the hon. Gentleman said about the need for a depletion policy, but I remind him that any depletion policy announced by this Government must take into consideration the ever-changing position within the oil industry, both at home and abroad. It is, therefore, better that we should take some little time in ensuring that we evolve the proper depletion policy, rather than rushing into it.

Mr. Carlisle: I welcome the Government's intention to restrict the flaring off of North Sea gas which cannot be brought ashore, and believe that the flaring off of excess North Sea gas is wrong, but will the Minister inform the House in what circumstances, if any, he might allow such flaring off to take place in the future?

Mr. Gray: Each case will be considered individually and on its merits. Exceptions might be granted in cases where


the amount of gas was so small that it would be totally uneconomic to gather it. That might be an instance in which flaring would be allowed.

Mr. Douglas: Will the Minister accept that a vital element in discussing the depletion policy is the Government making up their minds on a gas-gathering system? When do they propose to do that?

Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the present study being carried out by the British Gas Corporation and Mobil is likely to be completed early in the new year. It is hoped that it will be available for consideration by about the end of March. Before that is received it would obviously be unwise to make any positive decisions.

Mr. Skeet: Will the Minister of State modify the Varley proposals for depletion and also bear in mind a European requirement, provided that the Europeans are prepared to pay world prices?

Mr. Gray: We have undertaken to honour the Varley assurances for the period to which they apply. Any other consideration will be considered from time to time.

Nuclear Industry

Mr. Cadbury: asked the Secretary of State for Energy when he expects to be able to make a statement on the organisation of the nuclear industry and further nuclear orders.

Mr. Norman Lamont: We are reviewing our policy on the nuclear programme and my rt. hon. Friend hopes to make a statement in the course of the next few weeks.

Mr. Cadbury: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the process for storing nuclear waste, known as vitrification, is now sufficiently well proven to enable the nuclear programme to go ahead without undue danger to the public?

Mr. Lamont: I am satisfied that the present proposals and the present plans for storing waste work safely.
Vitrification is nearing the stage of commercial development and we hope that it will be in commercial operation in the late 1980s. In other countries, such as France, it is further advanced. It will be a very considerable advance on ways

of storing waste. It will reduce the volume. It will very much reduce the dangers of movement and of leakage. I believe that altogether it will be a very considerable advance.

Mr. Conlan: Does the Minister realise that the very last thing the industry wants is another period of uncertainty brought about by proposals for further reorganition? Will he further realise that what is far more important is to have a steady, orderly, programme that will fill the greatly unused capacity which exists at the present time?

Mr. Lamont: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There can be many opinions on the ways in which the industry ought to be organised. I do not quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is unimportant, but I agree with him to the extent that orders are the most important thing for the industry.

Mr. Costain: When considering the industry, will the Minister pay special attention to and learn the lessons from Dungeness B? Will he realise that when a nuclear station is started before the plans are completed, this adds to the cost and brings about a deterioration in labour relations?

Mr. Lamont: My hon. Friend is quite right. The history of Dungeness B is a very sorry one indeed and has added considerably to the costs. That is all the more reason why the industry needs reorganisinn.

Mr. Spearing: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in a written answer of last week it was stated that energy policy will be discussed in Dublin? Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the discussion will be about nuclear policy? If so, will it be on a matter which has been referred to the House by the Scrutiny Committee but not yet debated?

Mr. Lamont: I have already answered one question. I gather that there has been a good deal of speculation on what might be discussed, but I have no reason to think that nuclear policy will be discussed in Dublin.

Mr. Dobson: When the Minister is considering the future nuclear programme, will he bear in mind that it is not only Dungeness B that has been a disaster? Of the other four AGR stations, two have


produced no electricity and the other two are now, if they are running at all, running at much lower than their original design ratings, and will never get back to those ratings.

Mr. Lamont: Yes, but even if we take account of delays in the course of construction, and the fact that stations have operated at below capacity, it is still the opinion of the CEGB that investment in the AGRs has been worth while, and that investment in nuclear industry will provide a cheap and competitive form of electricity.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSE OF COMMONS

Procedural Motions

Mr. Spearing: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement concerning the form and nature of procedural motions which he will in future be placing before the House.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas): I shall continue to do all I can to ensure that such motions are framed in the form most generally convenient to the House.

Mr. Spearing: I am grateful to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for his correspondence on this matter. Will he confirm that where possible he will put down motions in his representative capacity as Leader of the House, rather than in his Government capacity as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster? Will he tell the House whether he is proposing to appoint a Sessional Committee on Procedure this Session?

Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his correspondence and for the helpful suggestions that he has put forward, some of which I have been able already to assure him I accept for the better convenience of the House. I hope to make progress in due course concerning the Sessional Committee on Procedure.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Will my right hon. Friend set up the new Sessional Committee as soon as possible, so that it can consider and take into account what recently happened with regard to the relationship of the House to the use of a tape machine? There is the question whether

it is the tape machine of the House or of the BBC, as it was the other day, as against the usual reporting of the proceedings of the House, and which alternative is to be used in future.

Mr. St. John-Stevas: I was present in the House when that important point was raised and I noted the remarks of Mr. Speaker. This would be a very suitable subject for the Sessional Committee on Procedure to consider urgently.

European Community Legislation

Mr Hooley: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proposals he intends to put before the House for the more effective scrutiny of EEC legislation.

Mr. St. John-Stevas: A number of recommendations for improving the scrutiny of EEC legislation were contained in the First Report from the Select Committee on procedure, Session 1977–78. As I informed the House on 31 October, we shall in due course be bringing forward proposals on these and on other outstanding recommendations of the Procedure Committee.

Mr. Hooley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that we shall not have a repetition of the disgraceful performance a little while ago, when seven major documents on energy policy were supposed to be debated within 90 minutes, and most of that time was taken tip by the Secretary of State for Energy?
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that what we want here is not merely a scrutiny of the edicts of Brussels but the right to disown or disallow them?

Mr. St. John-Stevas: It is always open to this House to express its views and its will. It has been the practice of this Government to bring EEC documents regularly before the House for discussion, and for my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal to make regular statements. We shall continue with this practice.

Mr. Dudley Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us who are pro-European are sick and tired of the stream of so-called harmonisation legislation which is coming from the EEC, and which is adversely affecting commerce and industry in this country? In the circumstances, does he not think that it is a


priority that we should begin to examine this matter much more seriously?

Mr. St. John-Stevas: I certainly attach great importance to making progress with the recommendations of the Procedure Committee. I agree with my hon. Friend that one should economise on harmonisation, otherwise one creates discord.

Mr. Crowther: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is most desirable that this House should express its view and its will before the Government have committed us to something in the Council of Ministers which then is irreversible? Will he take steps to ensure that we get that matter right in the future?

Mr. St. John-Stevas: This is the subject of a recommendation of the Procedure Committee. As I recall, the Committee concluded that the balance of advantage lay with the course that the hon. Gentleman suggests. However, this is something that we must examine extremely carefully and urgently.

Bottomley Report (Implementation)

Mr. Wrigglesworth: asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a further statement about progress towards the implementation of the recommendations contained in the Bottomley report on the administration of the House.

Mr. Arthur Bottomley: A new Whitley committee constitution has been agreed between staff and management. The grading review of all staff in the five Departments of the House is now in progress and should be completed before the House rises next summer. Progress is also being made on negotiating recognition agreements with the unions represented among the staff of the House, but the Commission is not yet ready to make a statement on that matter.

Mr. Wrigglesworth: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House will be grateful for that information about the implementation of his report? How long does he expect it to be before the review of the grading structures for staff in the House is actually implemented? Will he give an assurance that the present terms and conditions of members of staff will be safeguarded and that they will not be worse off as a result of this review?

Mr. Bottomley: The grading review is proceeding very satisfactorily and I hope that it will not be too long delayed. I have no reason to expect that any member of staff will suffer as a result of the grading review.

Mr. Strang: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some concern in the House about the time that is being taken to reach agreement on the new trade union recognition agreements? Will he look into the matter?

Mr. Bottomley: Yes. The unions have not all responded as yet. When they do, I hope to be in a position to make a further comment about the matter.

Catering

Mr. Cryer: asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what plans he has for the House of Commons catering.

Mr. Arthur Bottomley: The Commission has been considering whether it should make use of the powers conferred upon it by the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978 in order to implement some of the recommendations contained in the Second Report of the Services Committee of Session 1978–79. A statement can be expected shortly.

Mr. Cryer: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that, when any press reports are produced showing the catering subsidy in this House, the catering facilities for the press side are also included? Will he make sure that the press employers, who do not pay the full cost of catering facilities in this House for the Press lobby, are charged the full cost, including the cost of presently free stationery, free telephone usage and free use of premises, lighting, heating and so on? Will he also, as a step towards open government, make sure that private Dining Room bookings are published in future?

Mr. Bottomley: I take note of what my hon. Friend has to say, and I shall bring the matter to the attention of the Commission.

Mr. John Wells: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy seems to be incapable of providing good English apples, will the right hon. Gentleman do so?

Mr. English: Will the Commission's review of catering take two matters into consideration—namely, that Members and staff of these premises should pay no more than civil servants in First Division messes, or Army officers for that matter, and that the catering staff should receive no less than is received by those employed by the Crown? In order to achieve that, will my right hon. Friend bring the Catering Department under the Commission totally?

Mr. Bottomley: What my hon. Friend has said has been noted. A report will be made in due course.

Mr. Rost: May we have an assurance that the catering will be brought on to a profitable basis forthwith; and if not, why not?

Mr. Bottomley: I would prefer to answer that question some time later when I have more information.

Mr. Skinner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that at a time when at the posh end of the Dining Rooms the meals are subsidised, so I am told, to the tune of as much as £5 per meal, the present Government are actually making propositions to all local education authorities for the withdrawal of subsidised meals for millions of school children? Will my right hon. Friend say that a Government acting in that manner are nothing short of hypocritical?

CENTRAL OFFICE OF INFORMATION

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: asked the Paymaster General when last he met the head of the Central Office of Information.

The Paymaster General (Mr. Angus Maude): Last week, Sir.

Mr. McNair-Wilson: When my right hon. Friend met the head of the COI, did he raise with him the COI's campaign to explain the link of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom in the United States of America? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the mere churning out of press releases about the Province is the best way of explaining that historically?

Mr. Maude: Yes, Sir. I have discussed this matter. This is, in some measure, the responsibility of the information department of the Northern Ireland Office. But I am satisfied that the COI is alive to all the possibilities.

BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION

Mr. Cryer: asked the Paymaster General what meetings he has had with representatives of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Mr. Maude: At the invitation of the BBC I have on three occasions met a small number of BBC officials.

Mr. Cryer: Does the Minister accept that on the recent exercise of BBC filming at Carrickmore there was a severe rush to judgment by this House? Will he assure the House that he is not in any way attempting to influence the BBC by exercising some sort of censorship, that the BBC remains free to film and report as it thinks fit, within the law and within the terms of reference that it is able to apply to programmes, and that the Government are not, either by raising issues in this place or through behind-the-scenes influence, attempting to censor an important medium?

Mr. Maude: This is a matter primarily for the governors of the BBC. At no time in any of my discussions did I raise, or was there raised with me, the question of the IRA "Panorama" programme. As far as I am concerned, no attempt has been made to censor the BBC.

Mr. Fell: Will my right hon. Friend, at the first available opportunity, cancel the BBC charter, put the wavelengths out to public tender and, at the same time, safeguard outside broadcasting and overseas broadcasting?

Mr. Maude: My hon. Friend has raised a fascinating and wide selection of issues, but they are matters for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Mr. Strang: In view, however, of the almost intimidating statement made by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister the other week, does the right hon. Gentleman consider that last night's impressive showing of a play about Suez


was a timely reminder of the importance of the independence of the BBC?

Mr. Maude: I do not thin that that is in any way a matter within my responsibility.

Mr. Ioan Evans: When the right hon. Gentleman meets the BBC, will he explain that the BBC is independent and that it should not be intimidated either by the comment by the Prime Minister about putting its house in order or by the more serious statement made last week by the Secretary of State for the Environment when he tried to suggest that the BBC should not display protests that were being made about the Government's public expenditure cuts?

Mr. Maude: In all my relations with the BBC I have never gained the impression that it is in any doubt as to the fact that within the law it is independent.

Mr. Skinner: Is the Minister aware that when the Home Secretary gave the written statement on the increased television licence fee last week and refused to be questioned at the Dispatch Box, as he should have been, the result was that thousands of people rushed to Post Offices in order to buy the necessary stamp and to get their licences? In my constituency—I bet that it has been repeated in many others—many disappointed customers attempted to pay their television licence on that evening before the deadline but the Post Office ran out of stamps. Will the hon. Gentleman see to it that those disappointed people are able to purchase their licences at the old rate?

Mr. Maude: That is a question that must be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. It cannot possibly fall within the purview of the Government information service.

POLITICAL HONOURS

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about honours for political service.
Work in the service of political parties is at present the one major area of this country's life which is not recognised by the award of honours. I do not believe that this is right. I have accordingly recommended that the forthcoming New Year Honours List and subsequent lists should include a number of awards to members of the parties for their political and public services. Her Majesty the Queen has approved my recommendation.
I do not consider that such awards should be made only to members of the party in power. I have therefore invited the right hon. Gentlemen the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Party to submit recommendations for political honours. I am also ready to receive in the same way recommendations from the leaders of the other minority parties.
All recommendations for honours for political and public services will be examined by the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee before they are submitted to the Queen for her approval.
I should also like to announce one other change in the role of the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee. I have asked the committee to examine any names that I add to the recommendations at CBE level and above which are submitted to me through the official honours machinery in respect of services in all fields other than that of political services. The committee has readily agreed to do so. This further extension of the committee's function will, I believe, help to maintain the integrity of the honours system.

Mr. James Callaghan: I congratulate the Prime Minister on this innocent diversion from some of the more pressing matters of the day. It is, of course, a matter for the Prime Minister of the day, and it is her decision to take, as I properly recognise. As to her proposals, I think that there is general recognition of the value of the service that is given to the political parties by voluntary workers in all the parties, whoever they may be. The Prime Minister will remember that this


system was discontinued in 1966 to some extent because of—I do not wish to use too strong a word—abuse of the system in the conferment of knighthoods and baronetcies by previous Tory Chief Whips. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]. Having heard the enthusiasm with which this has been greeted by the aspirants on the Conservative Benches today, it is quite clear that there will be no lack of candidates in the future.
I think that the Prime Minister is moving in the wrong direction. As she is aware, I considered some partial changes, especially in the conferment of awards to civil servants, who are now remunerated on a very different basis from when these awards were first conferred, and also the relationship between the Civil Service, the Diplomatic Service and the Defence Service. Because there were more pressing problems, and for another reason, I decided then not to take any action on that limited aspect of the matter. I regret that the right hon. Lady is introducing this partial change—I shall, therefore, not be making any nominations—but I put it to her that now that she is making this change, which she is entitled to do, it should be coupled with a general review of the honours system as it now stands, in relation to both the distribution of awards between various groups and the method of selection.
I am glad that the right hon. Lady will submit certain names to the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee. In fact, that was done when the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) reintroduced the system in 1970. I think that he did exactly the same thing, except for the CBEs. I seriously suggest—this was in my mind when I decided not to make partial changes—that we in this country are too status-conscious anyway. I think that there is a good case for making the conferment of awards more valuable, by making them more restrictive rather than easier to come by by generalising and extending them. That is the proposal that I make to the right hon. Lady.

The Prime Minister: I regret that the right hon. Gentleman will not make any recommendations. It is a pity to leave all these matters to Resignation Honours Lists. I think that it will help a number of people in the political parties who give absolutely vital service to democracy. It will help them feel that they, too, could

be recommended for the regular honours lists. However, that is a matter for the right hon. Gentleman and his party.
I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman instituted some kind of inquiry into the numbers for Crown servants but, as he pointed out, he decided not to do anything further about it. I do not think that there is any need to have a general review of the honours system. I believe that by announcing that political honours will be reinstated and by making certain that they go to the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee we will protect the integrity of the system.

Mr. David Steel: Is the right hon. Lady aware that in our view it does not make any sense at all to give honours for outstanding public services to every group in this country except servants to our democracy? For that reason, the change that she has announced is obviously sensible. Will she not close her mind to the possibility of a review, because surely these awards are meant to be for outstanding service and not routine place service of the kind that has been used in the past. Does she accept that Governments since 1966 have abused the system ostensibly by not having political honours but none the less finding other ways of distributing them? Surely that brings the system even more into disrepute. Will she give an undertaking that this will not be used to dangle knighthoods in front of her revolting Back Benchers?

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for indicating that he will take part in the political honours system. I confirm that the name of anyone whom I recommend outside the political honours system for other services would have to go to the Scrutiny Committee, which I believe is absolutely right. However, I do not see any need to have a general review of the honours system. Of course, that does not preclude minor changes from time to time.

Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Does my right hon. Friend include the conferment of membership of the Privy Council among those honours of CBE status or greater? If so, and when they are not for ministerial office, could they be examined by the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee as well?

The Prime Minister: No. Membership of the Privy Council is not included. That is regarded as a wholly separate honour, which does not go before the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee. In view of its status, I think that that is right.

Mr. Anderson: As a continuation of this counter-revolution process, and in response to pressure from her own Back Benchers, will the right hon. Lady consider reintroducing hereditary peerages?

The Prime Minister: I do not wholly exclude the possibility, but I think that it would have to be for something of very great distinction.

Mr. Stokes: As a non-revolting Back Bencher, is my right hon. Friend aware that her half-considered promise about the creation of new hereditary peers will cause widespread satisfaction throughout the whole country, remembering that the English love a lord?

The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend very much.

Mr. Donald Stewart: I thank the right hon. Lady for her offer to receive recommendations from other minority parties, but I inform her that I have no intention of taking up that offer, now or at any time in the future. In view of the strained loyalties among hon. Members on the Government Benches over the removal of transport for schoolchildren, industrial redundancies, the mortgage rate, and so on, would the Prime Minister tell the House whether this scheme has been cooked up as a bribe to keep those hon. Members in line?

The Prime Minister: That question was not worthy of the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Viggers: Does not our democracy depend entirely upon those people who, regardless of party, work for the local parties in the constituencies? Does it not require voluntary effort, and is it not entirely constructive of my right hon. Friend to say that those who do such work should not be ineligible for benefits and honours?

The Prime Minister: I entirely accept my hon. Friend's view. Democracy could not work without the work that those

people do, and I think, therefore, that they should be eligible for honours.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call two more hon. Members from either side.

Mr. Benn: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a widespread view that patronage is one of the great cancers of our society and that the granting of honours corrupts, or can corrupt, those who are given them as well as those who are tempted by the hope of receiving them or are actually receiving them? Is the right hon. Lady aware that there is also a widespread view that some dignified way of recognising public service would be better than a system that entrenches social divisions and makes this country the laughing stock of the rest of the world?

The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised if I disagree with him. I believe that this is a dignified way of recognising a great deal of public service, and I hope that the safeguards that I have built in will preserve its integrity.

Mr. Adley: One recognises at least the consistency of the view of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). Will my right hon. Friend give some attention to the real situation, which is that their Lordships, particularly hereditary peers, are far less likely to have political debts than are hon. Members of this House who may have to face reselection? On that basis, will my right hon. Friend give serious consideration—as she has just indicated she may—to reintroducing the hereditary principle?

The Prime Minister: I stand by the reply that I gave, but I do not rule out the possibility of hereditary peerages. However, I think that it would require some very great distinction and service to this country. Life peerages, of course, are also submitted to the Political Honours Scrutiny Committee.

Mr. Heffer: Is the right hon. Lady aware that some of us think that political honours—in fact, all honours—are a load of rubbish, and that the only honour that some of us want is when the working-class people whom we represent say "He did the best job he could on our behalf"?

The Prime Minister: The fact remains that people of all parties have been very ready to receive honours, even though not given at the time of regular honours lists. I do not believe that the time has come to abolish them or to review the system. I propose to continue with the system with the modification I have announced today.

Mr. Emery: Would my right hon. Friend consider discussing with the Leader of the Opposition his reaction to her statement? I am certain that I am not unique, in that in Conservative constituencies many Conservative Members of Parliament are approached by members of Labour Party organisations asking for recognition for people who have given great service to the Labour Party in the constituency. They are just as worthy of recognition as is anybody else.

The Prime Minister: In so far as those requests are for political honours, of course, we can do nothing about them, but in so far as they are requests for recognition for very distinguished public, charitable, or other service, they will be considered in the usual way. I confirm that such requests do come from all sides of the House.

COUNCIL HOUSE SALES (WRITTEN QUESTIONS)

Mr. Straw: I wish to raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker, of which I have given you notice and which relates to a report in The Guardian newspaper this morning about the leakage of a Government document on the costs of the sale of council houses.
At the end of July I asked the Secretary of State for the Environment a series of written parliamentary questions about the costs arising from the Government's policy on the sale of council houses. There are two questions in particular to which I would draw attention. I asked the Secretary of State:
if he will publish a table in the Official Report giving the estimated number of local authority tenants who have been tenants of any authority for a period of one year, two years, three years and for each year up to 20 years and for those who have been tenants for more than 20 years.
and also
what information on the sale of council houses he collects from local authorities or

other sources; and if he will make this available in the Library.
To both questions I received the following reply from the Minister for Housing and Construction:
The information is not available in this form."—[Official Report, 26 July 1979; Vol. 971, c. 466.]
In The Guardian this morning it was reported that an official paper prepared by senior civil servants at the Department of the Environment showed that for every property sold by the end of the century losses could range from £8,535 and £2,735. The article stated that the report
provides a profile of the council-house buyer.
The average council house buyer is shown not to be a young couple but a family man of 40 seeking a 25-year mortgage.

Mr. Speaker: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will now put a point of order that I can answer.

Mr. Straw: I was coming to the point, Mr. Speaker. The report also states that the paper showed that the Government could have provided immediate information on the financial aspects of council house sales.
My point of order is that the report to which The Guardian story refers was, I understand, written before the parliamentary questions that I put down were answered. The answers that I was given were at best inaccurate and, in my judgment, misleading. I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether it is in order for a Minister to answer in an inaccurate and misleading manner questions that are tabled.

The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. John Stanley): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) for telephoning my office and telling me that he would raise this point of order, which enabled me to make some inquiries. It now appears that in respect of two of the questions the answers that I approved in writing were not those that subsequently appeared in Hansard. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman and to the House for the slip that occurred. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will reproduce the answers that I originally approved in writing and publish them in the Official Report.

Mr. James Callaghan: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not think that we have ever heard a stranger reply than that. Admittedly the reply was honest, but for the Minister not to add anything beyond the fact that his own answer was altered is remarkable. Will he please explain what happened after he approved the answer?

Mr. Stanley: What happened was exactly what I have told the House. The answers that I approved in writing were not those that subsequently appeared in Hansard, as a result of an administrative slip-up.

Mr. Callaghan: With respect, it is unheard of, when a Minister has approved an answer in writing, for it to appear in a different form. Was it the Editor of Hansard who altered it? If not, who did?

Mr. Speaker: The Business Motion.

Hon. Members: No, no.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order, I am on my feet.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. Right hon. and hon. Members know that I was on my feet. I was simply asking for order. I call the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Callaghan: I am much obliged, Mr. Speaker. I do not wish to trespass on your generosity on a point of order. I think that you would agree that what we have heard from the Minister is without parallel in this House. As he intervened on a point of order, the Minister owes it to us to explain who altered his answer—without his authority—which then appeared in Hansard.

Mr. Stanley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I cannot add to what I have already said. The answers that I approved were approved in writing and, obviously as a result of an administrative error, the wrong answers were sent to the hon. Member. Obviously we shall make inquiries within our Department to see how that happened. I have apologised to the House and the hon. Member, and I cannot add to that.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We have had points of order that I cannot answer, and points of order are always addressed to me. Because it was the Leader of the Opposition I allowed him to extend his point of order after the Minister's statement. I am trying to think what possible further points of order could come to me as a result of that.

Mr. Benn: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The issue, as I understand it, is that at the beginning of every Session the House passes a sessional order providing that if anyone tampers with witnesses to the House he is guilty of high crime and misdemeanour. That is a matter for the House. What the Minister said—it was quite unprecedented within the experience of most hon. Members here—is that a civil servant changed the answer that he had approved for delivery to the House, thus tampering with information that the House was entitled to receive. It is not for the Opposition to try to find out what goes on in the Department, but it is for the House, in the person of yourself, Mr. Speaker, to find out how it was that a civil servant interfered with a ministerial answer and denied the House the information that it should have had.

Mr. Speaker: I undertake to make inquiries into this matter to see whether there is anything that I can do to help the House. I shall make a statement in the near future.

Mr. English: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Is it a new point of order?

Mr. English: May I give notice that, subject to your statement, Mr. Speaker, I may wish to raise this matter as a breach of privilege?

Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not necessary, and, indeed, it is irregular now. Under the rules of the House, of which the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) is a master, he knows that he should put that in writing.

See also column 1107

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the motions relating to Agriculture, Defence, Education, Science and Arts, Employment, Energy, Environment, Foreign Affairs, Home Affairs, Industry and Trade, Social Services, Transport, Treasury and Civil Service, Scottish Affairs and Welsh Affairs may be proceeded with though opposed, until half-past Eleven o'clock or for one and a half hours after they have been entered upon, whichever is the later, and that if proceedings on the motions have not been disposed of by that hour any amendments to the first motion which may have been selected by Mr. Speaker, may be moved, the questions thereon shall be put forthwith, and Mr. Speaker shall then proceed forthwith to put the Question upon the said motion and any Questions necessary to dispose of the other motions and of any amendments moved thereto which have been selected by him.—[Mr. Cope.]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.

Ordered,
That the Rate Rebate (Amendment) Order (Northern Ireland) 1979 (S.R. &amp; O. (NI) 1979, No. 358) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments &amp;c.—[Mr. Cope]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY

[6TH ALLOTTED DAY]—considered

MORTGAGE INTEREST RATES

Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.

Mr. Roy Hattersley: I beg to move,
That this House recalls the statement in the Conservative election manifesto that "the prospect of very high mortgage rates deters some people from buying their homes and the reality can cause acute difficulties to those who have done so", notes that the manifesto attributed high mortgage rates to Government financial mismanagment, and condemns the present Government for applying policies which result in the mortgage rate being increased by the largest amount ever to the highest rate in history.
The facts of the situation are only too plain. On 1 January 1980—

Mr. Speaker: Order. I see that a number of right hon. and hon. Members are standing while the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) is addressing the House. We can have only one hon. Member addressing the House at a time.

Mr. Hattersley: On 1 January 1980 mortgage rates will rise by 3·25 per cent., the highest increase ever, to 15 per cent., the highest rate ever. As a result, mortgage holders face the largest increase in repayments in real terms that owner-occupiers have ever been forced to endure.
For the £5,000 mortgage there will be a net increase after tax of £2.05 a week, for the £10,000 mortgage the increase will be £4.10 a week, and for the £15,000 mortgage it will be £6.15 a week. These figures are the levels paid after average tax relief. There will be some families—admittedly only a few—who are on low incomes and pay little tax and who are struggling to buy their houses who will find that the gross sums they are required to pay are very near to the net sums after tax.
In those circumstances it is no wonder that The Daily Telegraph, of all papers, says that the Secretary of State


is beginning to show "considerable despair". There is no wonder either that the Financial Times, of all papers, says that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shows signs of being "considerably chastened". I am sure that the House needs no description of the anxieties and hardships that increases of this sort will cause.
I suspect that very few hon. Members on Conservative Benches, as well as on this side of the House, will share the view of the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Heddle) who suggests that those who have complained about high mortgage rates causing hardship and anxieties are making a great deal of fuss about nothing. In fact, there will be hardship and there undoubtedly is anxiety, particularly among young couples buying or hoping to buy their first homes, and among those families with modest incomes who have managed their present repayments only after making sacrifices. Even now, these people are on the margins of being able to afford to buy their houses and not being able to afford it, and they will find that the new increases are literally beyond them.
The most significant indication of how bad things will become was found in The Times on Saturday. The Times is a paper which normally prides itself not only on its rigid financial probity but on its rigid respect for the law. Yet on 24 November one of its correspondents, talking about the prospects facing mortgage holders after 1 January, gave advice to those who would be in extremis. To them he said that they should first consider passing their mortgages on to their children instead of regarding that as unthinkable, as it was 10 or 15 years ago. Secondly, he suggested that endowment holders should ignore their legal obligations to complete repayments within a fixed term and hope that the law and the building societies would turn a blind eye because the situation had become so desperate. If The Times is simultaneously recommending such extraordinary financial expedient and such a remarkable flouting of the law, things have become extreme.
No one will doubt why this has occurred. There is no doubt either—and this has been reported in all but the most sycophantic of newspapers—that the increase on 1 January will have a con-

siderable effect on the living standards of the people of this country. For families who are buying their houses from average and below average incomes, whatever benefit they might have expected from a reduction in income tax has been wiped out, to coin a phrase, at a stroke. In addition, they will have to pay higher prices because of increased VAT, higher national insurance contributions, higher prescription charges, higher prices for school meals and higher rates. It is now easy for owner-occupiers to count the real cost of Conservatism. I suspect that before long council tenants will be making the same gloomy calculations and coming to the same conclusion.
I doubt whether either group will need reminding where the responsibility and the blame lie. If they need a reminder, they can turn to the wit and wisdom of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said in May 1978 in one of those statements he issues from time to time:
Signs for borrowers are ominous. The current lending rate of 8½ per cent. is under threat. There is talk of it going up by 1½ per cent.
Some of us will look back on those days as halcyon days. He went on to say, regarding it as an enormous and intolerable increase:
Let us make sure that the blame is placed fairly and squarely where it should be placed.
He came to the simple conclusion that, however they wriggle and whatever the arguments, the blame should lie on the Government of the day. I am sure we all say "Amen" to that—[Interruption.] Does the Financial Secretary want to say something? [HON. MEMBERS: "He dare not."] There is no doubt that whatever owner-occupiers will suffer on 1 January is the direct result of the economic and financial policies that the Government have chosen to follow.
It is not simply monetarism that they choose to follow—to which all the blame has been attached by the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) who, in a most impressive letter to The Times, said that monetarism was at the root of our problems—but excessive monetarism. Not only is it excessive monetarism; it is incompetent monetarism. As every correspondent or commentator of any consequence has said over the last three weeks, the increase in the minimum


lending rate to 17 per cent. and the consequent increases in other interest rates are the direct result of the Government's incompetent attempts to deflate the economy and to reduce direct taxation at the same time.
Those two aims are mutually incompatible. They have turned the Government's economic policy into a farce and even penalised those whom it was most anxious to assist. I offer two quotations to support my view. First, the Financial Times, on the general level of interest rates, said:
The pains we have so far suffered have not been in the cause of deflation. They have only brought us to the point where deflation can begin. It is a forbidding thought.
I have no doubt that the whole country agrees.
The Daily Telegraph drew a different moral. Typically it was less interested in the high economic argument and took the low political point:
Mrs. Thatcher aptly described the Conservatives as the home-owners party. Sustained high mortgage interest rates could seriously erode this natural affinity.
It could indeed.
While we are on the subject of blame, as were the Financial Times and The Daily Telegraph—blame for the uniquely high interest rates and blame for the suffering that house owners will face after 1 January—a word or two should be devoted to where the Secretary of State for the Environment believes that the blame should rest. Certainly he did not accept any responsibility on behalf of the Government. Nor did he blame the Government's predecessors, the Labour Government. He blamed the British people. He spoke of:
The self-imposed tragedy of a nation which has abandoned any sense of reality about the awfulness of its position.
I am sorry that the British people are proving unworthy of the Conservative Government.
However, I congratulate the Secretary of State on not falling into another pitfall into which some of his less subtle colleagues might well have fallen—the temptation to blame the previous Labour Government, or the "Gillingham syndrome", that is, the idea that everything that has gone wrong since 3 May—

Mr. F. A. Burden: When the right hon. Gentleman last referred to

me, I asked him a simple question—what cuts his party would have made had it been in government? The Financial Secretary made clear that heavy cuts would have had to be made.

Mr. Hattersley: I answered that question at the time.

Mr. William Clark: The right hon. Gentleman did not.

Mr. Hattersley: What I wanted to ask the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden), hoping that he would feel it necessary to comment on my reference, was that, while he no doubt believes that the increase in mortgage rates is the direct result of what the Labour Government did before 3 May, why was he negligent in not explaining that fact to the Prime Minister? In June and July the Prime Minister assiduously gave the impression, as I shall demonstrate shortly, that everything was all right, that mortgage rates would soon fall and that the building societies could postpone their natural and anticipated increase.
In a moment or two, I shall pursue the question of what happened in those difficult and painful days. There were strange examples of meetings that did not take place and advice that was or was not given by officials to the building societies. There was also the strange case of what it was the Secretary of State congratulated the building societies upon when he met them on the Monday after they decided not to increase their rates.

Mr. Burden: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question?

Mr. Hattersley: Before I turn to those matters, I shall turn to a more important question which deals with the future rather than the past—how long the punitive rates of mortgage repayments and interest are likely to last.
I do not propose to ask the Financial Secretary to give the House an indication of when he believes that the minimum lending rate is likely to fall. I agree that that would be a foolish question, so much so that I cannot understand why the Secretary of State for the Environment asked it on 21 June 1978. Another point that he made in that debate was that under the last Labour Government mortgage rates were on average 2 per cent,


higher than they were under their Conservative predecessors. That is a crude calculation. However, I give the Secretary of State credit for making only slight exaggeration. I accept his figure at face value, that is, that the five years of Conservative rule, which preceded the five years under the Labour Government, produced mortgage rates of about 2 per cent. higher than under the Labour Government.
Does the Secretary of State believe that that pattern will persist? Does he believe that the average mortgage rate under the Conservative Government, a Government elected in May of this year and which might run till 1984, will maintain that pattern? Does he believe that the average rate will be lower or higher than under the Government's predecessors? If he believes that it will be higher, I hope that he will avoid the temptation to do what he did on Friday when, on behalf of the Government, he blamed the people. I suspect that the people will do the opposite. They will, quite rightly, blame the Government.
All the signs are that the high rate will persist. I regret that as a politician and mortgage holder, and I hope to be proved wrong. Nevertheless, all the evidence suggests that recent gloomy predictions that high mortgage rates will last are true. If the Secretary of State can assure us that those gloomy predictions are based on either false evidence or false conclusions, nobody in the House will be more pleased to accept that assurance than I.
I fear that there are three reasons why that assurance must and will be difficult to give. First, the minimum lending rate will persist at its historically high level as the Prime Minister persists with her monetary remedy to all our problems. As her monetary remedies continue to fail, there is no evidence that the Prime Minister is prepared to make judgments about our economic position according to fact rather than to her personal dogma. Indeed, the Prime Minister suffers from what is rightly described as the "certainty of the second rate". She will pursue her programme until it has been clear to everyone for some time that it is bound to fail. As she pursues it, MLR and mortgage interest rates will remain high.

Mr. Michael Latham: Is the right hon. Gentleman opposed to high interest

rates? If so, why did he remain in the Cabinet when MLR went up to 15 per cent?

Mr. Hattersley: I was never in a Cabinet when rates were as high as they are today. I was a member of the Cabinet when interest rates moved up and down but the motion, apart from referring to extracts from the Conservative manifesto—against which the hon. Gentleman will presumably vote—makes the true and central comment that mortgage rates are rising by the largest amount on record to the highest rate on record. That is a unique achievement with which no other Government can compete.
The second reason for my fear that high interest rates will persist concerns another piece of Conservative dogma, namely, the selling of council houses and the desire to finance those sales through building societies. That intention and obsession of the Government is bound to push up and hold up mortgage rates. The chairman of the Building Societies Association told me and a group of my right hon. and hon. Friends on Wednesday that surely we and the Governmet must know that there was no way in which the societies could attract the extra money to finance council house sales without increasing the rate to lenders, and that if that were done the rate to borrowers would have to be higher than it would otherwise be. Putting aside all the other disadvantages, problems and reasons why the compulsory sale of council houses should not go ahead, the Government's obsession with that policy will impose an extra burden on owner-occupation by forcing up and holding up mortgage rates.
The third reason why mortgage rates will remain high, perhaps even after MLR falls, concerns the damage done to building societies by the Government in July. As a result of that Government action, they managed to produce the highest mortgage rate in history and a mortgage famine simultaneously. That is no mean achievement. For the past three months, only seven mortgages have been provided for every eight that were made available to intending home buyers in the previous two years. The building societies expect that for the next year, even with rates running at the current uniquely high level, there will be a mortgage


famine, not least because of the Government's behaviour in July.
Will the Secretary of State for the Environment throw a little light on what happened in the first two weeks of July and explain why the building societies were encouraged to believe something that has turned out to be palpably untrue and were therefore allowed to make decisions on that false belief which have been enormously to the disadvantage of the societies and mortgage holders?
The sequence of events was something like this: there was a meeting in July of the point advisory committee in which the building societies discuss problems with officials from four departments—the Treasury, the Department of the Environment, the Registrar of Friendly Societies and, I think, the Inland Revenue. The meeting considering the 2 per cent. increase in MLR and how the societies should react to it. The meeting took place against a background of newspaper reports, which anyone who has ever followed politics would believe to be co-ordinated, indeed orchestrated, reports from Government sources saying that on the previous day Ministers had considered the mortgage rate and believed that there was no reason for it to be increased and that building societies would be best advised to hold down the rate for some months.
At that meeting, representatives of the building societies pressed officials to try to find out whether the Government intended to approach them. Officials could not comment on whether there should be a ministerial initiative, but they said that it was the Government's belief that mortgage rates should not be increased in the summer. Indeed, the chairman of the Building Societies Association told me and my colleagues on Wednesday that the officials had given one specific reason why rates should not be increased in July. The reason was that if they had been increased all the benefits given by the Budget would have been absorbed.
Influenced by that, by the orchestrated newspaper campaign describing Ministers' attitudes and particularly by the Prime Minister urging in the House on 5 July that building societies should think long and hard before putting up their rates, the societies concluded that MLR would fall between the summer and Christmas and

that they could therefore take the risk of increasing the rate to investors, but not to borrowers—in anticipation of the hints, nudges and winks which they believe the Government had passed their way.
When the Building Societies Association council met on the Friday it decided on higher rates for lenders, but no increase for borrowers. On the Monday, representatives of the building societies had the pleasure of meeting the Secretary of State for the Environment who, I understand, told them that there was nothing to talk about, that they had made the right decision and that he was grateful and congratulated them on it. I do not say that that is exactly what was said, but I understand that it was the general drift of the conversation. If I have done the conversation, the situation, the winks, nudges and indications or the Government's attitude less than justice, I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will correct me when he replies.
The net result was that the building societies, anticipating an early fall in MLR, did not increase rates in the way that they regarded to be necessary and prudent. Indeed, one society, having anticipated an increase in rates on 1 January to over 12 per cent., did not even send out the increase notices. It believed that the Government's indications were so strong that MLR and the mortgage rate would come down and the increase notices would not be necessary.
As hon. Members will know from newspaper reports, there were allegations that the Prime Minister, in particular, with her comments about the need for building societies to think long and hard and her implication that they should live off their reserves, had duped the societies. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Some of my hon. Friends say "Hear, hear" but I do not make that charge. I believe that the Prime Minister was guilty of something that she will find even more difficult to admit. She was wrong.
I believe that the right hon. Lady genuinely thought that her monetary solution in the summer would put everything to rights. She believed that the pressure that she hoped to place on the economy, the added doses of inflation that she imposes on us week by week and month by month, would mean that the uniquely high interest rates would not


persist. But they did. They are now at a record level and mortgage holders are suffering more than ever before.
I hope that there will be no weak-minded questions about whether I am glad or sorry that the mortgage rate did not go up in the summer. I am desperately sorry that it is going up by as much as it is in January, that the higher rates will persist for so long, and that the Government have brought that about, not least by their behaviour in the summer.

Mr. R. A. McCrindle: Looking at the other side of the coin, is the right hon. Gentleman also sorry that the increase in the mortgage rate means an increase in the rates paid to investors, who outnumber borrowers by two to one, and that, as a result, the mortgage famine may be less in evidence in the spring that it has been in the autumn?

Mr. Hattersley: That is not the opinion of the building societies. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was here when I said that the Government's unique achievement has been to achieve record interest rates and a mortgage famine simulutaneously. It is not the opinion of the building societies that the position will improve. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I were told only last Wednesday that the unhappy position of only seven mortgages being available for every eight that were granted last year will persist into 1980. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has given me an opportunity to reiterate that fact.
As well as telling us what the Government did in the summer, I hope that the Secretary of State will tell us why they thought it right to enter into this exercise of quasi-intervention or semi-interference. The Daily Telegraph gave the reason in a leading article.
It said:
What counts in this case is that a large majority of mortgages are actual or potential Tory voters who are quite liable to take it out on the Government which bumps up the bills from the building societies.
The Government have bumped up the bills from the building societies. However, because they postponed doing that the Government have made the situation worse, and made it last longer.
In the past six months the Government have attempted to defend everything they

have done according to three clichés. They have not defended their actions on their merits, on the facts, or on the evidence. The first cliché that the Government use is that it is all necessary, no matter how painful, in order to attain economic recovery. The second is that it is all the responsibility of the Labour Government. The third queries how anyone dare complain. Everything, they say, was promised and foreshadowed in the election manifesto.
The new economic policy—the basis for all those sacrifices and to which everything has been subordinated—turns out to be no more than old-fashioned deflation, dressed up in fancy language. In addition, that old-fashioned deflation has been incompetently applied. This week The Economist asserted that we have first concluded
the six months when the Government veered off course.
The Economist concluded that we cannot afford another autumn like 1979. I am sure that that sentiment will be echoed by every owner-occupier.
No one will say that the sacrifices that are being demanded are in the good cause of economic improvement, because economic improvement is not in sight.
The second cliché—that the Labour Party is to blame—is not for a moment credible.

Mr. William Clark: rose—

Mr. Hattersley: Will the hon. Gentleman wait, because I want the Government to take their pick.
If the Labour Party is responsible, the Prime Minister was being less than frank in July. By July the Prime Minister had had 10 weeks to open the books and read them. I give her credit for understanding them. If our present suffering is the result of something that happened 10 weeks before the announcement—the implications, nudges and winks that the minimum lending rate might come down at any moment—why did the Prime Minister not admit that the situation was so bad? Why did she encourage building societies to take action that would prove to be against the interest of their members?

Mr. Clark: The argument of the right hon. Gentleman is false in three respects.


First, he has ignored the fact that international interests rates have gone up since May. Secondly, he said that building societies are making only seven advances, although last year they made eight. They are making only seven advances this year partly because of the inflationary element within the cost of a house. The right hon. Gentleman will find that the actual advances are far greater than last year. Thirdly, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Labour Party is not responsible. However, the public sector borrowing requirement inherited by the Government was phenomenal.

Mr. Hattersley: The hon. Gentleman intended to explain why it was all the Labour Party's fault. He then veered off course and explained that international events were also concerned. I concede that the pressure of international rates has had a little to do with it, but the idea that that has forced up the minimum lending to 17 per cent. is, frankly, bizarre.
That high rate could have been avoided had a different, non-monetary strategy been pursued. If everything is the fault of the high public sector borrowing requirement that the Government inherited why did not the Prime Minister know that in July? If she did know that in July, why was she not more frank about it with the building societies?

Mr. Latham: Now that the right hon. Gentleman has had another 10 minutes to think about my previous question, will he answer it? What is so wrong with a minimum lending rate of 17 per cent. when the Labour Cabinet was in favour of, and imposed, a rate of 15 per cent. in October 1976.

Mr. Hattersley: I have taken advantage of those 10 minutes. In 1976 the minimum lending rate ran at 15 per cent. for six weeks. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the present figure will run for six weeks or less, I shall concede his point.

Mr. Burden: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in response to a written question in October, I ascertained that the Labour Government borrowed $23 billion on which the interest is $2·7 billion? That sum has not been repaid.

The Government raised £79 billion on Government stocks issued on the home market on which the interest is £6 billion. If that did not leave the Government with a legacy of debt, I do not know what a debt is.

Mr. Hattersley: I am aware of that point because the hon. Gentleman keeps telling me. He told me about that figure during our last debate. My complaint about him is not that he tells me too often, but that he does not tell the Prime Minister.
Despite the enormous burden of debt perceived by the hon. Gentleman, the Prime Minister said in July that everything was all right. She said, "Do not put the rates up at Christmas. Help is at hand. The minimum lending rate may fall." If Conservative Members knew that things were going to get worse, why did not the Prime Minister know? They will have to answer that question. They must be careful not to fuel the charge—the charge that I have been anxious to avoid—that the Prime Minister knew but, for political reasons, chose to tell the building societies something different.

Mr. Raymond Whitney: The right hon. Gentleman has offered us a most tantalising prospect. He suggested that high interest and mortgage rates might have been avoided if other policies had been followed. Will he elaborate?

Mr. Hattersley: That issue will be elaborated in some detail on Wednesday. The time has come not for continual deflation but for a measure of controlled expansion. That is dependent on the Government abandoning some of their dogmas. The Government should conclude that the only way to manage the economy properly is to tackle costs at their source. I have no doubt that hon. Gentlemen wishing to pursue that subject will find plenty of opportunities to do so on Wednesday.

Mr. William Clark: rose—

Mr. Hattersley: I have given way several times, and I propose to continue.
A third cliché on which the Government have relied when things have gone badly during the past six months is that no one is entitled to complain because everything was described in the manifesto.


Therefore, the Government say, the British people should have known what was coming to them. Much that is written in the manifesto about mortgage rates is incorporated in our resolution. That is one reason why the resolution does not have the elegance that we would have liked.
In case Conservative Members have forgotten what the manifesto said, and so that they know exactly how to forswear themselves this evening, I shall remind them. Seven months ago the Conservative Party said:
The prospect of very high mortgage interest rates deters some people from buying their homes"—
we all agree with that—
and the reality can cause acute difficulties to those who have done so.
Again, we all agree with that. The manifesto then went on quite baldly, blandly and without any qualification to say that the Conservative Party's plans would lower interest rates.
Those are some of the words that Conservative Members will have to eat later tonight when they vote. As all Britain knows, that promise was wrong and the assurance was false. Government supporters will troop into the Lobby this evening to vote down those words on which they fought the election. They will do it as if they have forgotten their promises or failed to notice that their promises have been broken. But the British people have noticed, and I do not think that they will forget.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine): The whole House will be grateful to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr Hattersley) for the new clarity that he has brought to the economic policies of Her Majesty's Opposition, because it will enable observers to make a balanced judgment between what Her Majesty's Government are determined to achieve and what the Opposition would like to put in its place. I think that it would be fair to summarise the right hon. Gentleman's position as being in favour of higher public expenditure, because he is now leading a campaign to increase public expenditure levels. I understand that he wants less monetarism at a time when

most economic experts in the Labour Party have come round to supporting more monetarism.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman now wants a controlled expansion of the economy. In the absence of the economic growth that was a feature of the Labour Administration, I take it that that means that we are to have yet more borrowing. To go with more borrowing, I take it that we shall also have higher taxes as another way of paying.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman then wants to tackle costs at their root, which I think is the new euphemism for a prices and incomes policy to replace the one that destroyed the previous Labour Government.
That is a broad summary of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. We shall look forward to hearing that speech in three or four years' time. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would give us a little more time to forget the record of the Labour Government before inflicting it on us today.
If there is one lesson that we should have learned by now, it is that inflation leaves no part of our society unaffected. For as long as we pay ourselves extra earnings unmatched by extra wealth and the Government borrow the money to finance them, these debates will go on in one form or another. There is no purpose, in anything other than the shortest of terms, in attempting to isolate mortgage rates from the prevailing economic climate. To subsidise them would simply encourage house price increases and switch the burden from those who have just bought to those who are saving to buy.
The central task is to change the economic climate, and it is that that the Labour Party and the right hon. Gentleman, now freed from the responsibility of office, are determined to frustrate. Every warning by the former Prime Minister and Chancellor from this Dispatch Box in the early months of this year is now abandoned, as the consequences that they forecast so clearly in January now come about. Indeed, by their cynical pretence that they never foresaw those consequences they aggravate the problems and harden the attitudes that must change if we are to conquer inflation.
No one is more guilty of this than the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook, who has put his name to the campaign to keep up the levels of public expenditure that were financed upon a concept of growth that had already disappeared before the Labour Government were destroyed.

Mr. Frank Allaun: The Secretary of State is now speaking about public expenditure. Does he realise that by what he is doing now he is increasing public expenditure by £390 million a year? That is the cost of tax relief on the extra mortgage interest that will be paid. Does the Minister further realise that for every council house that he forces councils to sell he will grant an extra public expenditure tax relief on the mortgage? I challenge the Secretary of State to deny the accuracy of the figure that I have just given. I do not think that he realises that in making this announcement he is making a rod for his own back and for the whole country.

Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman is, in effect, saying that I am transferring wealth to working people as a result of the proposals to sell council houses. I am trying to do just that. Indeed, I believed that the hon. Gentleman wanted to do that. We shall have an opportunity to examine the basis of the figures underlying council house sales when the legislation to enact that proposal comes before the House.
It is curious that the Labour Party, having had full access to the resources of the Civil Service for six years, never saw fit to produce, other than by leaks, the calculations that have suddenly become of such massive concern.

Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: Will the Secretary of State answer the first point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun), namely, that by the very act of raising interest rates in this manner he is substantially increasing public expenditure and the public sector borrowing requirement? That is an essential point, which he completely ignored in his reply to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman is correct. There is a consequential increase in the limited area to which attention has been drawn. We are looking for massive savings and disinflationary tendencies, which dramatically outweigh the

significance of the narrow point put by the hon. Gentleman. We are working towards the time when the interest rate starts to come down. Those figures will disappear when the permanent benefits that we seek materialise.
The first crucial link that we have to establish is the connection between the rates of interest prevailing in the market and those charged and paid by the building societies. The building societies attract much of their funds from the same people as the central Government. As one hon. Member made clear, it must be remembered that there are 18 million savers, all of whom have to be persuaded voluntarily to leave their resources with the building societies. As long as the central Government are borrowing at the levels of between £8 billion and £9 billion a year, all interest rates will be affected. Building societies do not set interest rate levels. They react to the market, and in Britain today the market is dominated by the high demands of Government borrowing.
I was interested in the questions posed by the right hon. Member for Spark-brook. He asked: why has there been a change since MLR was increased in the summer? I should have thought that he would be aware that in the United States, for example, prime rates have risen from 11½ per cent. to about 15¾ per cent. since the summer. Even in Japan and Germany, interest rates have doubled in an equivalent period.
I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would be aware that there have been two significant strikes—one in the collection of VAT and the other in the collection of telephone bills. Those strikes have deprived the Exchequer of £1 billion, which has had to be replaced by additional Government borrowing with consequential effects on interest rates. By the end of this financial year there will still be a shortfall of £½ billion, even allowing for the collection of those debts. Therefore, there have been two significant changes since midsummer, when MLR went up.

Mr. Donald Anderson: If the right hon. Gentleman attributes such substantial significance to the effect of those two strikes, when the shortfall is made up—and that will be in a short period—may we assume that MLR will come down?

Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman cannot have been listening to the figures. I made it clear that even by next April we shall still be £½ billion adrift in the collection of the revenues that I have described. Therefore, two critical features have changed since my right hon. and learned Friend was questioned about the midsummer changes.
But let me also deal with the right hon. Gentleman's questions about the dialogue between the building societies and the Government. It seemed to come as a surprise to the right hon. Gentleman to hear that there was any discussion between officials in my Department and the Treasury and the building societies. However, if he consults his right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), the former Secretary of State, he will learn that there is a continuing discussion about a whole range of issues, and rightly so. When we were dealing with the increase of the MLR in midsummer, it was quite natural—it would have been unforgivable if it had not happened—for the various officials of the appropriate Departments and the building societies to discuss the outlook.
Before the occurrence of the two critical events to which I have drawn attention, it was very much the Government's hope—my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear—that it would be a short-term position. However, it did not turn out to be short-term. We then had a number of options.
The first option was what we said to the building societies in answer to their questions. The second was whether we should abandon the policies of combating inflation upon which the Government were embarked and in which they were determined to succeed.
In answer to both those questions, the position is clear. In the present unsettled international climate, it would have been wrong for the Government to indicate in any way to the building societies that we could foresee an early end to the present high levels of interest rates. Equally, it would have been wrong for us to abandon the policies upon which the counter-inflationary pressures were being developed. So in our relationships with the building societies we have merely continued to do what all previous Governments did as a method of good

government. But we have refused absolutely, in the light of worsening international economic circumstances, to change the underlying strategy of fighting inflation upon which this Government were first and foremost elected.

Mr. David Ennals: rose—

Mr. Heseltine: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman understands that this debate is limited to three hours. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook gave way a number of times, and I try to do so wherever possible, but I want to conclude my speech as soon as I can to enable as many hon. Members as possible to make their contributions.

Mr. Ennals: The right hon. Gentleman has put forward a large number of reasons why the Government have taken this decision but he has not yet touched upon the effect on borrowers. What advice would he give to a young man who came to see me over the weekend? He earns a little more than £5,000 a year. He is a young school teacher who, 18 months ago, took out a £15,000 mortgage. He is now expected, pre-tax, to pay a little more than £41 a month in addition to his existing repayments. What advice would the right hon. Gentleman give him?

Mr. Heseltine: I shall want to deal with that specific case in the course of my remarks, because it is of very great importance to a considerable number of people. If the House will allow me, I intend to come to that specific question in a few moments.
The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook asked me, in what was a wholly misinformed passage of his speech, about the consequences of council house sales on the relative demand for mortgage funds. The right hon. Member will be aware that the financing of council house sales, if it is done in the private sector, will demand resources from the building societies. It is with that in mind, amongst other priorities, that I have asked the building societies to join me in setting up a working group in order to see what further supplies of finance can be made available from the private sector to the building societies for on-lending.
The second matter, which is the one that the right hon. Member simply has


not grasped, is that the statutory right to a 100 per cent. mortgage, which is enshrined in our commitment to council tenants, will to a substantial extent be financed by the provision of local authority mortgages. In effect, the provision of local authority mortgages in its simplest is a question of dividing existing local authority debts into relatively small packages and passing them on to council tenants, who will then begin to repay them at a faster rate than they would be paid if the local authorities paid them out of their own resources.

Mr. Hattersley: Will the Secretary of State make two matters quite clear? Is it his wish, as it has been his stated wish in the past, that the purchase of most local authority houses should be financed by the building societies? That is what he said. In the past he said that the advantage of that was that it reduced the public sector borrowing requirement. If that remains his wish, does not he agree with Mr. Leonard Williams, the Chairman of the Building Societies Association, that financing those sales in the way that he chooses is bound to push up and to hold up the rate?

Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood what I said. I am anxious to achieve the position in which, wherever possible, within the resources of the building societies, mortgages should come from the private sector. That has to be the first line of appeal. But where the building societies, for whatever reason, in their commercial judgment have not the resources to provide that cash, the statutory right to a 100 per cent. mortgage will fall to be honoured by the local authorities.
If there is a shortage of finance in the hands of the building societies, obviously they will decide, as a matter of commercial practice, whether resources are to be made available to council tenants, who have a statutory right of appeal to their local authorities for money, or whether they should go to their normal borrowers in the private sector. The right hon. Gentleman's argument is quite misleading, therefore.
I move to another question that is bound to be asked in this debate—the possibility of temporary subsidies to the building societies.

Mr. Hattersley: I did not suggest that.

Mr. Heseltine: I accept that the right hon. Gentleman did not ask about it, but it is a question that is bound to be asked in the debate and it may be helpful if I make my views clear, so that the House knows the Government's thinking.
I do not believe that there is any doctrinal view on this subject. I have no doubt that there can be occasions on which such subsidies may be appropriate. However, I do not believe that they would be appropriate on this occasion.
The first argument against such a proposal is that of the cost. To achieve a 2½ per cent. reduction in the mortgage rate would cost £155 million for three months—an annual rate of £600 million. It would all have to be borrowed, which would aggravate further the underlying problems with which we are trying to cope. If one subsidises the mortgagor, there is an immediate argument for subsidising industry, which would have a similar and even more pressing case. That, once again, would lead to further borrowing and a further aggravation of an already difficult situation.
But even for individual mortgagors the pattern of hardship is so widely dispersed as to make subsidies highly questionable. Let us consider the person who bought his house in 1970. Then, a first-time purchaser paid, on average, £4,300. In capital terms, his mortgage repayments are tied to 1970 values, but since then his income has trebled and the capital value of his house has quadrupled. It is difficult to see that a person in those circumstances can claim a need for subsidy at the expense of other taxpayers.
The real problem comes from those who have bought only recently or those who are also saving to buy. An examination of the individual circumstances to which the right hon. Member for Spark-brook drew attention brings one to realise the complexity of the position, and I now suggest to the House how it should be dealt with.
Looking at the housing market at large, one sees that under the last Government prices were soaring and that there has only recently been a significant levelling off in the rate at which those increases were taking place. In the last 18 months of the previous Administration, while


house building was declining, prices rose by 35 per cent., and in the last 12 months house prices have doubled in some parts of the country.
Anyone who borrowed to buy in that climate is likely to be in the most exposed position in the present circumstances. Therefore, I welcome very much—I hope that this is the answer to the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook—the indications from the building societies, just as they gave similar indications in 1976 to the previous Government, that they will extend the repayment terms wherever possible and not look for increases in monthly instalments.
I hope very much, as I am sure the whole House does, that the present level of interest rates will exist for only a short period. However, it is essential to take action now to maintain our fight against inflation without which the long-term problems will assume increasingly the characteristics of the short-term problems.
I said that there was a second category of people badly hit by recent events. I refer to those people who are saving to buy. They have seen the prices of houses rising faster than their ability to save. They start saving at one figure only to find that it is quite inadequate by the time that they have gone through their planned saving period. This is just as much a part of the national economic problem as are high interest rates.
If we are to achieve our aim of wider home ownership, we must pursue policies that restrain soaring house prices whilst encouraging the growth of real disposable income.

Mr. John Evans: When are you going to start?

Mr. Heseltine: Therefore, we must all welcome the fact—this is the answer to the hon. Gentleman—that the dramatic increase in house prices that was a characteristic of the latter period of the Labour Government and the earlier period of the present Government is now showing a significant change.
The difficulties faced by those who are saving to buy cannot be better put before the House than by referring to the scheme that the Labour Government produced to try to cope with the problems of new home purchase.
Anyone enrolling in Labour's scheme in December 1978 could qualify for a grant of £100 and a loan of £600. If he hayed for two years, he becomes entitled to the £100 and £600 by December 1980—in other words, an entitlement of £700. That has to be compared with an increase in value of the average house of £8,000 over the past two years. The figures lead us to realise that attempts by artificial means to provide aid to prospective house purchasers are in no way comparable with the scale of the problem of combating inflation. That is the fundamental challenge that remains central to our policies.
Help for the new buyer and for the housing market is dependent not only on macro-economic judgments and policies. The Government have acted across a wide sectrum to set a basis for long-term improvement. We are considering the constraints on the availability of land for development. We have removed the Community Land Act and modified development land tax. It is interesting to remember that for all the overtones of repression that came from the Community Land Act in three years it provided only 300 acres for the builders. Its effect on diminishing land supply was incalculable.
We are taking measures to release publicly owned land that can be put to more useful purposes. In the first six months of government we have already sold off 1,000 acres of surplus land. The practice of offering public sector land all round the rest of the public sector before sale has been abolished. It was an encouragement to organisations to buy that which they did not need in anticipation of demand that often did not materialise.
Planning processes are being subject to detailed scrutiny to hasten the decision-taking processes. We intend to exempt many small planning matters from detailed control.
We are clarifying the overlapping responsibilities for planning in local government.
I am trying to set our priorities in the order in which we see them. First, we are determined to adhere to the central theme upon which the Government were elected, namely, to pursue with every weapon at our disposal the battle against inflation.


There are limits to the possibility—indeed, the desirability—of protecting people from the consequences of their own actions. Last winter's pay claims are this year's borrowing requirement, interest rates and mortgage bills.
In addition to the battle against inflation, the Government are doing all that they can to encourage home building and ownership. I shall quote from two speeches made by prominent builders in the past few days. Only last Tuesday the president of the House-Builders Federation, Mr. Donald Moody, said at the federation's annual conference:
It must by now be fully understood that it helps no one, least of all house purchasers, to hold down the mortgage rate if that results in shortages of funds for house purchase.
That is one builder who understands the need for realism in economic policy.
Several days later Mr Barratt, who is the chairman of the largest private house building company in Britain, made the following statement at the annual general meeting of his company:
I find it sad that the media are painting a scenario of gloom and disaster when a whole new world has opened up for Britain and British industry by a Government which at last recognises economic facts of life and is prepared to acknowledge these realities in its economic policies. As far as we, who are operating in the building industry, are concerned, the obstruction under which we have operated for the past five years has gone and has been replaced by positive encouragement.
The only question left for the House is whether it believes the men who are building houses or the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook, who is attempting to build a reputation. It is a choice between experienced integrity and cynical opportunism.
I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
while recognising that the present level of mortgage interest rates place an additional burden on home owners, realises that this group cannot be totally insulated from the general level of interest rates in the economy; and reaffirms its support for the essential measures which the Government has taken to reduce its claim on public expenditure and to combat inflation.

Mr. Michael Meacher: The Secretary of State has failed to consider the realities. One glaring reality is

that house owners are being sacrificed, with the mortgage rate increase, on the altar of the Government's obsessive commitment to almost exclusive monetarist control of the economy. That is what is behind the huge increase in the mortgage rate. It is absurd for the right hon. Gentleman to seek to justify the increase on the grond that it must be seen in the context of the Government's attempt to reduce inflation. It can be seen only as yet another of the Government's achievements in producing severe deflation. Behind all the fancy language describing the Government policies, what we are really seeing is 1930s-type deflation with a vengeance. On this occasion it is the home owners who will carry the major load.
Leaving aside the basic economic fallacy, there are two other issues raised by the latest hike of mortgage interest rates to which I shall draw attention. The first issue is one on which the right hon. Gentleman was questioned. He failed to give a satisfactory answer. I refer to the misallocation of the nation's resources. That becomes an acute issue with mortgage tax relief being granted in the most regressive fashion on an interest rate of 15 per cent.
Housing already absorbs more than £6 billion of borrowing each year, which is about two-thirds of the public sector borrowing requirement, to which such inordinate attention is constantly being given by the Government. Even before the latest increase, about £1¼ billion was being given by means of income tax relief to home owners. That will rise steeply to about £1¾ billion with the huge increase in interest rates.
The grossly unfair distributional effects of yet further increased mortgage tax relief will soften the cost for the higher paid at the expense of poorer tenants, who will almost certainly face large rent increases. Surely that cannot be a rational allocation of resources when the Government purport to be trying to increase investment in industry and are prepared to introduce savage cuts in public and social services so that public sector borrowing does not pre-empt funds for industry. If that is the Government's policy, and I believe that it is, will not a huge increase in mortgage tax relief to 4½ million owner-occupiers do exactly what I have described?
House values have already risen about l2½ times since the Second World War compared with a five-fold increase in industrial share values. If the Government are putting a stop to any increase of public expenditure, how can they not put a stop to the endless escalation of mortgage tax relief, at least at the higher tax rates? If there are to be cash limits on public expenditure so as not to preempt funds for industry, surely there must be a similar limit on mortgage tax relief at, for example, £l billion.
Secondly, there are the income distributional effects represented by the increased rates. I shall leave aside the balancing effect of the increased rate of value added tax. The budget handouts represented a gain for all sections of the population. There was a small gain for the lower paid and a larger gain for the very rich. The rise in mortgage interest rates will eliminate all the gain for all but the higher paid while leaving the top earners with a huge tax gain.
This Budget largesse was offset at the time by a VAT increase, which was enough to turn the tax gains into a net loss for all those earning less than £12,000. These swingeing increases in mortgage rates have transformed even that degree of inequality so that the threshold for any gain, in the Prime Minister's new Tory Britain, has been raised to an earnings level of around £20,000 after taking account of the Budget gains, of VAT and of the mortgage rate increases—

Mr. Anderson: And rates.

Mr. Meacher: Leaving aside rate increases, which are still to come, no one earning less than £20,000 will make a net gain over the last six months. After that, if one happens to be one of the lucky people above that level, the sky is the limit. Even after the VAT and the mortgage rate increases, the gains for those earning over £20,000 are still considerable.
The broad effects of Tory income distribution over the last six months are becoming clear. If one combines the tax gratuities in the Budget with the higher mortgage payments, net of tax relief, because that is what is actually paid, there has been a net loss, based on figures given in a Treasury answer of 21 November and on building society figures for increases

in net mortgage payments, for everyone earning below £15,000 a year. Net losses range from £1 a week for the lowest paid to nearly £3 a week at the technical, supervisory and lower management level. Not until one reaches earnings around four times the average national level does one find gains still being registered, post-Budget and post-mortgage increases, of £3 a week. Thereafter, not even the soaring mortgage cost increases can obliterate the massive tax gains that have been given. The senior manager earning around £25,000 a year, based on Treasury figures, is still registering a net increase, after the mortgage cost increase, of over £50 a week. For everyone earning less than £25,000 there is a net loss.
The VAT increase takes matters further. Looking at the three together—the Budget, VAT and mortgage increases—the effect on the lower-paid worker is a net loss of £2·50 a week. The average earner will be about £4 a week worse off, the supervisory and lower management grades about £7 a week worse off, the middle management and professional grades about £7·50 a week worse off, and even the higher management level about £6 a week worse off. Only those earning above £20,000 a year—precisely I per cent. of taxpayers—have gained.
In Tory Britain, 99 per cent. of the population have had to take a loss over the last six months. I am taking the situation up to the mortgage rise in January. Against this, the cosseting of the richest 1 per cent. is almost proverbial. Even after the unprecedented VAT and mortgage cost increases, the average member, not the richest member, of this highest paid 1 per cent. of earners is still left with a gain of around £40 a week, the equivalent of well over half of the average national wage, net of tax.
All households with earnings between about £3,000 and £10,000 a year—the vast majority of people in Britain today—are now about 4 per cent. worse off as a result of the main Government financial changes made since last May. By comparison, the £25,000-a-year family is now 8 per cent. better off. Even these calculations understate, in full, the changes that have been made. They exclude higher bus and rail fares, increased prescription charges and swingeing rent and rate increases on the way, as well as major cuts


in public and social services, all of which will tend to hit hardest the poorest.
The calculations also exclude the effect of the Budget's raising of the threshold for the investment income surcharge that exclusively benefits those well endowed enough to have substantial unearned income. The Chancellor of the Exchequer hailed his own efforts in June as presenting an opportunity Budget. What he did not say was that the opportunities would be concentrated on only 1 per cent, of the population, to be paid for by all the rest. That is the essence of the new Tory Britain.

Mr. John Heddle: Stabilisation of the economy and the conquering of inflation is a painful business. The country learnt that between 1974 and 1979. It is continuing. This debate serves as a verbal epitaph of the extravagance of the previous Government—

Mr. Barry Sheerman: Rubbish.

Mr. Heddle: It is naive for the hon. Gentleman, in a sedentary position, to say "Rubbish." It takes at least six months for the cost of funding public borrowing to work through the economy. This Government have been in office for barely six months. They have not had time to bring down public spending and so bring down the rates of interest that have to be paid on the public borrowing requirement. But the Government have started, and will continue, on that path.
I detect a faint ring of hypocrisy in the Opposition's motion. We are not talking about a real rate of interest of 15 per cent. We are talking about an actual rate of interest, paid by the building society borrower, of 10½ per cent., after tax relief has been taken into account. That is against a backdrop of rapidly rising house prices over the last five years of 30 per cent. or more a year. That hypocrisy becomes louder still when we examine the Labour Government's record on other interest rates.
The house purchaser, about whom the Opposition are weeping crocodile tears today, was having to pay 22 or 23 per cent. to borrow money from a hire-purchase company to buy a car or furniture or to improve his home during the last

five years. The average rate of inflation over the last five years was at least 21 per cent.
That faint ring of hyprocisy becomes even louder when one considers the prudent widow who was brought up to believe in saving for her future and for a rainy day. If she had invested £500 on 1 March 1974—I choose that date advisedly—in one of our major building societies, she would today be left with £342·33, taking account of inflation and the added benefit of interest paid to her. Meanwhile, if she had invested £1,000 on 1 March 1974, she would have been left today with a mere £685 of her lifelong savings. If a married couple had done the same with £5,000, they would have been left with £3,428 today. What did we hear from the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) about the plight of the investor?
I beg to differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle). It is not two investors who are needed to fund one mortgage but five. We should be concerned about the plight of the investor as well as the plight of the borrower.
I should like to put the mortgage problem into context. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment referred to houses bought by first-time buyers 10 years ago. Ten years ago, the average mortgage was £3,300. Today, the average mortgage is £11,700, an increase of about three and a half times. Ten years ago, the average income of the first-time borrower was £1,680 a year. Today, it is £6,500 a year, an increase approximately fourfold. Ten years ago, Mr. and Mrs. Average Homebuyer paid 19 per cent. of their income towards a mortgage. Today, due to the intervening rise in property prices, that represents a mere 7·9 per cent. of their income.
We should concern ourselves with the people who are really hit by the rise in inflation brought about by five years of extravagant Government spending—the first-time buyer and the small investor. I listened carefully, but I have heard nothing so far, either from the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook or from his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher), about a solution to the plight of the first-time buyer and the plight of the small investor, without whom


the whole property market would collapse and the whole building industry would fall. I did not hear one word of constructive comment or one suggestion as to how their problems could be solved.
Let us suggest perhaps that the investor's savings should be inflation-proofed—possibly index-linked. Let us suggest to the Building Societies Association that perhaps it should devise a scheme which would enable the poor widow who had invested her £500 to be guaranteed at the end of the term to have as much as she began with plus the interest that had accrued. The unit trust movement has done it, so perhaps the Building Societies Association could devise a similar scheme. It would require Treasury consent and an amendment to fiscal law, but there would need to be no amendment to the Building Societies Act or the Trustee Investments Act.
Let us consider the plight of the first-time borrower and suggest to the building societies that they should consider relaxing their rules of borrowing, perhaps by granting 100 per cent. mortgages. We might ask them to grant mortgages on unimproved properties in inner cities and on properties of three storeys that do not have front gardens. That would introduce greater flexibility in their lending terms.
Let us also encourage the building industry. The Government have started to do that by abolishing the Community Land Act and reducing the rates of development land tax. Let us try to exemplify those builders by suggesting that they incorporate deferred payment schemes to enable first-time buyers to proceed with their purchases after the mortgage interest rate has risen, provide moving-in schemes, part-exchange schemes, deposit savings schemes and interest-free loans on the deposit.
I should like to nail one lie to which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook referred—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. The word "lie" is unparliamentary.

Mr. Heddle: I apologise to the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The lie was not his. It was perpetrated by Shelter. I referred to it in a weekend speech which was reported

in The Guardian today, and to which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook referred earlier.
I have discussed the plight of the mortgagor with directors of 10 national and local building societies since the announcement by the Building Societies Association last Thursday. Each of them has told me that in cases of genuine hardship, provided the mortgagor's record of repayment has been satisfactory, their mortgage term will be extended and the mortgagor will not be required to increase his monthly repayment.
I conclude with two quotations, one from an editorial in the Estates Gazette, probably the most highly regarded and most respected journal among those involved in the housing market, of 17 November. It said:
Artificially pegged mortgage rates would add a new distortion to the housing market at a time when at least some of its inherited twists are being unravelled. Subsidies are generally indiscriminate in their operation, and the availability of mortgages at well below the prevailing level of other interest rates would quickly be followed by a rise in house prices, while an unacceptably low return for investors would reduce building society receipts, result in severe mortgage rationing and, in the longer term, mean fewer new housing starts and a consequent rise in unemployment in the building industry.
I am sure that the Opposition would wish to avoid that.
My second quotation is from someone with whom I am sure the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook would wish to associate himself, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who on 9 November 1978, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, said
If the Government were to…fail to take timely action when necessary and lose control of the money supply, the sufferings of the whole of the British people, whether mortgagors or not, would be infinitely more serious than suffering brought about by increases in mortgage rates."—[Official Report, 9 November 1978; Vo. 957, c. 1233.]

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the House that this debate ends at 7 o'clock. Perhaps I may also mention that Mr. Speaker's computer fails to pick up speeches of less than 10 minutes.

Mr. David Penhaligon: The title of this debate should have nothing


to do with mortgages. It is, I suspect, the first of a long, sad series of debates that we shall have on the Government's money supply policy. We shall no doubt have debates before long about unemployment, industrial investment, the collapse of small businesses and, I expect, the collapse of the small builder. They will all revolve around the Government's basic dogma that everything can be solved if only they can control the money supply.
I do not dispute that an impressive historic record can be produced relating inflation to money supply. I do not for one moment deny that there is such a connection. But the Government are not arguing that there is a connection. They are arguing that one is controlled by the other. I have not seen one paper written by any financial journalist providing evidence to support that theory. Nevertheless, the Government's policy today is based on the single and final belief that we can correct all problems in our society by controlling the money supply, and that control inevitably makes all other aspects of the economy suddenly fall into place. I do not share the Government's view, and I believe this to be the first of a series of debates that will sadly demonstrate that I am right.

Mr. John Major: The hon. Member has slightly misunderstood and misrepresented the Government's economic policy. Is he aware that the Government have stated repeatedly that without control of the money supply we cannot bring down inflation? They have not said that control of the money supply is the only means of doing that.

Mr. Penhaligon: I look forward to reading that in Hansard and trying to work out the difference between those two statements. From any point of view, the only line of action on which the Government appear determined to maintain course is their monetary targets, and everything else is meant to fall in behind.
The Government hope increasingly as the weeks pass that control of the money supply will lead to lower pay demands. They are wrong, but they hang on to that hope. This is not the time to debate the matter, but clearly this country needs some form of pay policy.
The problem is sadder than is shown by a mortgage rate of 15 per cent. In the 22 months from January 1978 to

October 1979 house prices in this country rose by about 47 per cent. That means that a house costing £10,000 in January 1978 will now cost about £15,000. The increase in the mortgage rate in that period from 8·5 per cent.—its lowest level during the Lib-Lab pact—to the current 15 per cent. means that repayments on such a house have risen from £81·50 to £193·50 a month. That is a staggering increase of 130 per cent. in just two years.
Such an appalling rise must have a dramatic effect on the prospects of people to own their own houses, to sleep peacefully at night and to balance their individual accounts. The Lib-Lab pact can claim some success in terms of mortgage rates. When the pact began, the rate was 12·25 per. At the end it was 9·75 per cent., and the all-time low during the life of the pact was 8·5 per cent. in January 1978.
I remember the Conservative Party in my part of the country chiding my Liberal colleagues and me for keeping in office a party which allowed mortgage rates to reach nearly double figures. I can assure Conservative Members that in my area, where the Liberal Party is far from dead, we shall remind the Conservatives of all these figures at the next general election.
I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Heddle), who fought a marginal seat at the last election. I wonder how many times he made a speech such as that we have just heard in defence of high mortgage rates when he was trying to wrest the seat from Labour. I suspect that the speech was invented recently and that those facts were never mentioned at the time of the election.
The next point about mortgages is this. Perhaps this is the saddest point of all as there is some truth in what the Minister said. Those who, like myself, got into the mortgage club a decade ago have been helped by inflation at the same time. The saddest aspect is people buying new houses.
I suppose that I should declare an interest as I am at this moment negotiating a mortgage. My local small building society tells me that it can lend only one and three-quarter times a person's salary at the current levels of interest. There is some disagreement about that between different societies, but none appears to be


willing at the moment to lend more than double a person's present salary, with a mortgage rate of 15 per cent.
The consequences of that are dramatic, if a young married couple are to have any prospects of purchasing a property for the first time. The national average wage is about £100 a week. In my area it is probably less than that. However, we shall ignore that fact for the sake of this debate. I shall take the example of the person earning the national average of £100 a week, looking forward to buying his first modest property. One and three-quarter times £5,000 a year is barely £9,000. Just what kind of property can anybody buy in my part of the country, or most others, with a total borrowing capacity of £9,000?
The Government have already seen us return to a position in which buying a property is not possible unless daddy offers or lends £5,000 or £6,000 of his own money. The people whom I see do not very often have fathers, mothers or in-laws who can lend them that sort of money. The undoubted result, which is already to be seen in one's individual constituency, is that the importance is not whether we do or do not sell council houses. Speaking for myself, I have no great opposition to selling them. However, that is not the main housing issue of the day. The main issue of the day will quickly become whether we are building enough council houses for the massive increase in demand that we shall shortly experience in this country.
There are not that many people under the age of 30 who earn much over the national average wage. A person tends to become prosperous later in life. Let me reduce the age to 27 or 28. There are not many people over that age who earn a great deal over the national average wage. Those people marry, and wish to have children. They are forced to look to the local authority for housing. I can assure them that in my area—as I know that a number of hon. Members can unfortunately assure their constituents—there is very little prospect of the Government encouraging the local authorities to build houses for them.
We therefore have a 15 per cent. mortgage rate. How long for? That must be the question most people are asking. A

15 per cent. rate for six weeks or even, I suppose, a couple of months will not make that much dramatic difference, although it will cause a great deal of worry. Are we talking about 15 per cent. for the next year, or most of next year? What does the Minister think about the possibilities of increasing the rate yet further? I should have laughed off the suggestion of 15 per cent. if someone had asked me that question six months ago. Perhaps we should not laugh off the possibility of 17 per cent. or 18 per cent. Is the Minister saying "This far and no further"? Will he give us a guarantee that it will be no further and that the Government will consider some kind of short-term bailing out, at least of the first-mortgage holders, if there is any real risk of the rate going further than that?
The Conservative Party is making a dramatic mistake. I do not believe that all its members actually believe that the money supply policy, on which all this is based, is what is required to put Britain right. I must warn Government supporters that they must tell their own party that the Government must get off this ludicrous money supply hook if they wish to defend their positions in their own constituencies at the next election, whenever it comes.
I have seen parties do things for their own self-benefit that were difficult to explain. But no greater folly have I ever seen than a Government sacrificing their own supporters for a narrow short-term dogma. I warn Government supporters that there is still time to tell their Government to do something other than simply control the money supply. I warn them quite firmly that the money supply restrictions will upset in particular those who run small businesses, those trying to buy houses and those trying to invest in industry. If I have discovered anything in my 15 or so years in politics, it is that they, historically at least, have been the backbone of the support of the Conservative Party. I must warn the Government and tell them—perhaps even thank them in a sarcastic way—that they are doing my party a greater service than any other Government who have ever represented the nation in this House.

Mr. William Clark: I do not think that I shall follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Truro


(Mr. Penhaligon) in his appreciation of the Lib-Lab pact. I pass that over by saying that the hon. Gentleman is keen on giving the Conservative Party advice. I understand that during the time of the Lib-Lab pact the Liberal Party was supposed to give the Labour Party some advice. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour Party subsequently lost the general election. Therefore, I do not think that Government supporters want to take much notice of the warnings given by the hon. Gentleman.
I do not think that we can consider the question of mortgage interest rates in isolation. It is high time that people throughout the country, and not only in the House, realised that for too long and for too often we have lived in cloud-cuckoo-land in our appreciation of the economy. We seem to have thought that if there were any deficiency the Government could spend money and deal with it. If that logic were correct—if by increasing public expenditure everything would be all right—the solution would be easy. We could have prosperity tomorrow. However, hon. Members on both sides realise that the economy is suffering from overspending in the public sector. That is what the general public are paying for at the moment.
I do not think that we pay sufficient attention to the public sector borrowing requirement. Everybody knows that this year it will be about £9,000 million. That is what we are overspending as a nation. One sometimes must pay back whatever one overspends as a nation or indeed as a housekeeper. The sum of £9,000 million is difficult to understand. If we ask how much we are overspending per week, the answer is £170 million. We are overspending by about £22 million a day.
That consequently means that the Government of the day—we cannot cut Government expenditure just like that, overnight—have that borrowing requirement. That money must be borrowed in the market, with all its international pressures. Quite obviously, the huge public sector borrowing requirement must affect the rate of interest that we pay. There is no point in thinking that we can, by increasing public expenditure, necessarily put ourselves into prosperity. All that we shall do is to increase the demand on borrowed money. That will push up interest rates even further.
When the Government came to power we thought that the borrowing requirement would be about £8,500 million. That proved to be false. However, we must pay attention to the fact that, in view of the VAT and telephone strikes, the Government's cash flow was depleted. Consequently the public sector borrowing requirement has been that much increased.
I do not like the amount of hypocrisy displayed by Members of the Opposition when we discuss owner-occupiers. Many Members of the Opposition do not believe in owner-occupation. It is hypocritical for them now to hold themselves out as champions of the owner-occupier and his high mortgage rates.
I must declare an interest. I am a vice-president of the Building Societies Association. I hasten to add that that is a purely honorary job. Neither I nor any other vice-president takes part in the deliberations of the association with officials, Ministers or others.
We cannot leave the subject of building society interest rates without taking into account pressures in the international market. All hon. Members know—it is no use making party points on the subject—that the interest rates in America, Japan, Germany have all risen. We cannot isolate ourselves from the international forces affecting interest rates. Consequently, the MLR goes up, and nobody regrets that any more than I do. But we cannot kid ourselves that we, as a country, can continue to live on tick—that we can borrow and borrow and have all the good things that we would like to have. There comes a time when one has to say "Stop". It is as simple as running a household. If our income is £50 a week and we are spending £55, we can get by for some weeks but eventually it will catch up with us and we shall have to cut our spending. The same thing applies to the nation, and I do not understand why people do not realise it.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) is not here. During his speech I think that he unwittingly misled the House, when he said that building societies this year were giving only seven-eighths of the number of mortgages that they gave last year. In fact, the amount


of the individual advances granted is higher this year because of the increased prices of houses. It is no good just looking at the mortgage interest rates and the first-time buyer and thinking that that is the whole of the mortgage question. It is not. In addition, one of the reasons why house prices have escalated is that with our Rent Acts there is a great deal of under-occupied property which could be used for housing people who are without accommodaion and who want to be first-time buyers because they cannot get rented accommodation.
In a similar vein, I cannot understand the argument about the sale of council houses. Mortgages for council houses could be obtained from the building societies if they had sufficient money. If that failed, the Government would have to do a kind of book entry with the local authorities so that the council tenant would get his house. Here, a sense of hypocrisy creeps in, because many Labour Members do not want people to buy their council houses. That was nothing to do with mortgage interest rates. It is clearly a political doctrine. Some Labour Members think that it is better to keep a person in a council house, on the premise that there will be a pool of houses that can be let. That is nonsense. There are council houses in my constituency. Once a tenant goes in, it is impossible to get him out. That council house is not in a pool. It is available only if the tenant moves. It is hypocritical of Labour Members to try to stop the sale of council houses on the premise that the building society interest rate is too great.
We must realise that building societies will not raise their interest rate if they have many demands for advances. The mortgage interest rate is fixed irrespective of the number of demands for advances. The market forces determine the interest charged by building societies. The market forces—I am delighted that the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook has returned—are determined to a certain extent by international forces.
We must get out of this party football over housing, mortgage interest rates, and so on. I am not necessarily blaming the Opposition for all our economic ills, but everybody knows that the economy is in a mess. We have for too long been overspending. The only way to get ourselves

out of this awful whirlpool is to face up to the realities of life. Nothing is free in this life. Anything that we get must be earned.

Mr. Donald Anderson: The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) spoke of hypocrisy. If his arguments about belt-tightening are valid now, they were valid at the time of the drafting of the Conservative Party manifesto, when the Conservative Party said that its plans for cutting Government spending and borrowing would lower the mortgage rate. They were valid also in July, when the Prime Minister gave an indication to the Building Societies Association that the high interest rates, the record MLR at that time, would be of only short duration. That intervention by the Prime Minister was made purely for political reasons, knowing that if the mortgage interest rate had increased at that time it would have erased at one stroke the benefits that the Government claimed would be given to the average man as a result of the Budget.
What I find most significant about the debate is the new chastened Secretary of State who has emerged. Exit the brash Sir Galahad; enter the Micawber, hoping that something will turn up. He came in and rapidly departed, with his tail between his legs.
This record mortgage interest rate is important in itself. It is a crushing blow to the hopes of many new borrowers and many prospective new borrowers. It is important also as an indication of the credibility of the Government and of their policy on interest rates.
One knows the strategy of the Government at the time of the June Budget, which was so welcomed on the Government Benches. The Government talked of an incentive society, reducing the burden of taxation, abandoning incomes policies and relying wholly on monetary constraints. The monetarism that they now espouse is a fine paper model but clearly it does not work in the real world, where men and, indeed, banks do not act as rationally as the Government would wish. That scenario seemed implausible at the time—there was no empirical basis on which it could be founded—and it has appeared more implausible as it has unfolded, particularly


because of the increase in MLR and the Budget.
In June the Chancellor boasted about the effect of the Budget on the average family man. He said that
income tax changes mean that for the married couple where the husband earns £100 a week, which is close to average earnings, there will be an increase in take-home pay averaged over the remainder of the financial year of over £4 a week. The increases in VAT and petrol duty will increase average family expenditure by about £2·75. So that, taking both the direct and indirect tax changes into account the average family will be about £1·30 a week better off."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 261.]
Where is that average family now? How much better off is it after these record mortgage increases? Where is now the boasted incentive, so shortly after the June Budget, when, indeed, the books were open? The picture could have been seen by the Government, had they chosen to see it. The assumption of the Prime Minister, assuming her bona fides—with the arm-twisting of the Building Societies Association by her or by the Secretary of State for the Environment—was that interest rates would fall reasonably speedily after the Budget. That has not happened. It has not happened because at that time the Government, as an act of policy, increased inflation by 4 per cent. as a result of the Budget changes and have increased inflation since as a result of other policy changes. That deliberate Government policy has added to inflation. The effect of this record mortgage interest rate will add something short of 1 per cent. to the RPI.
It was not only the average mortgage holder who was conned by the Tory manifesto. The man with a mortgage in excess of £25,000 had been led to expect some relief. I recall that in the Second Reading debate on the Labour Government's Finance Bill the then Shadow Chancellor said that
the mortgage interest relief provision will continue as it was last year, in order to maintain the status quo at £25,000 maximum".
He added that the changes
represent a continuing increase in the real burden of taxation."—[Official Report, 3 April 1979; Vol. 965 c. 1199.]
The implication was that at an early stage the next Tory Government would increase that limit and therefore reduce the burden on the man with a high mortgage.
In his speech today, the Secretary of State gave some indications that this

record mortgage increase reflected a shift in Conservative policy. Was it such a shift, or were the Government simply reacting wildly to a crisis of their own creation? Are they acknowledging the many complaints that the attractiveness of the financing of housing is at the cost of industrial investment and away from the stock market—the crowding-out argument? Are the Government deliberately trying to make housing more expensive, on the brave but perhaps rather foolhardy argument set out by the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Heddle) in his speech today and in his response to The Guardian? If he carries on in that way and says these things to the mortgage holders in his constituency, I suspect that he will be a young man with a great future behind him.
The argument about crowding out has a certain plausibility, but if this is part of deliberate Government policy the Government should say so clearly and use all their other available means to divert financial resources into industry. But it sounds unlikely because we have to recognise that at a time when the Government are increasing the housing problem in the owner-occupied sector they are also making more difficult the possibility of having council houses, because of their reduction in finance for local authorities. There has been a fall in starts in the private sector this year, in any event. It is also inconsistent with the previously announced plans of the Government.
In mid-August, it was said that the Treasury was undertaking a long-term study to increase the finance for the mortgage market by attracting funds from banks, insurance companies and pension funds. Here I stress that the word used was "increase" and not "substitute". The argument about a deliberate policy is not, therefore, supported by the establishment of that study in August, or by the announcement on 8 November this year by the Secretary of State that he was establishing a new group to review finance for home ownership, as the Government's objective was
to encourage a substantial growth in home ownership.
What a launching present for this new group established only on 8 November.
One must accept that the interest rate increase reflects in part the movement in


world rates and that we cannot be immune from that development, but there has been a deliberate increase in our domestic rates as a result of Government policy, partly from the Budget, as I have mentioned, but also indirectly by the ending of exchange control. The Government have increased rates to prevent money fleeing overseas from this country—money that might otherwise have been used for the purchase of Government stock. Therefore, they have to increase domestic rates to attract money that might otherwise flow overseas.
The increase in rates is in part the reflection of world developments, but it is in substantial part the result of deliberate Government policy since June. I wonder what is now the feedback from the constituents who, presumably, Conservative Members have met over the past weekend. I wonder how many Tory voters, seduced by the promises of tax reduction in the Tory election pledge, now realise the extent to which they have been conned. How many Tory voters will be better off as a result of the combination of the Budget and this mortgage increase?
If there is any mitigation, the Government might claim that this is an unfortunate increase, which has resulted from a variety of reasons—world rates, the delay in the collection of VAT, and so on—and that it will be of short duration. But what is the evidence for the suggestion that it will be of short duration? We know that the interest rate structure will reflect quite faithfully the rate of inflation in the economy as a whole. The current rate of inflation is 17·2 per cent. We know that that rate of inflation will be fuelled by a series of increases which are now in the pipeline—electricity, gas, coal, rail fares, rates—and that, therefore, the prevailing inflation rate will increase to not less than 20 per cent. The prospect of there being a rapid fall in the mortgage rate is a very dim one. Even though some building societies, as the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth said, may say that they will extend the mortgage terms to soften the blow, I wonder for how long they will do that. Several societies have said that they will do it for only a short time and for those who have taken out their mortgages after 1976–77, or in that sort of period. Perhaps there will be some mitigation, but it will be a very

small degree of mitigation, given the expected length of duration of these very high interest rates.
There will also, of course, be an increase in the pressure on building society rates as a result of the Government's policy on the sale of council houses. In support of that proposition, I quote from the Government's own consultation paper on the sale of council houses, in which paragraph 19 states that
The Government will encourage as many tenants as possible who buy their homes to fund their purchase with a private sector mortgage.
Even before the record increase that this Government have imposed on mortgage rates, we had the warning from Sir Hubert Newton, quoted in The Guardian of 23 October last, that
a mortgage rate of 16½ per cent. against a current 11 per cent. would be needed if societies had to attract extra funds to meet the increased demand for home loans
That was from those currently in the council sector. That is another factor which will, at the very least, keep rates at their historic high level and is likely yet further to increase the rate of mortgage interest.
I accuse the Government of economic incompetence, of blindly following an untried economic doctrine, and of being out of touch with our own people. We know that a Cabinet of millionaires is unlikely to sympathise with new and prospective borrowers from building societies. I accuse the Government of destroying the basis of their electoral support more speedily than any other Government in our history.

Mr. Michael Latham: Until that last sentence, I thought that the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) was doing a rather good job in opposing the Government. Until that very last moment, I thought that his speech was considerably better than that of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). At least I had some clear idea of what the hon. Member thought. I also had some idea of what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) thought. He thought that the tax relief on mortgage interest should be disallowed. That was obvious from the drift of his speech. I do not


think that that is the right hon. Gentleman's policy, and I do not think it is the Labour Party's policy, but no doubt it may be as time goes on, because we know that several Labour Members are strongly in favour of such a policy.
I start by reminding the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook of four sentences with which I am sure he will agree. They are these:
I cannot pretend that interest rates at current levels are in any way pleasing to the Government. They have already had a most unwelcome though inevitable effect on mortgage rates and while they last will put a strain on many parts of the economy. But it is quite wrong to suggest that they mean abandoning all our hopes for a rapid increase in our manufacturing investment and output. We do not want interest rates to continue at this high level and we hope that once the money supply is back on course any effect which the squeeze may have should not carry through to investment intentions."—[Official Report 11 October 1976; Vol. 917 c. 45–46.]
Those four sentences were said by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in the House on 11 October 1976, a few days after he had announced the decision to raise the minimum lending rate to 15 per cent.
Recently we had a tribute to the effectiveness of that policy, and to the effectiveness of the one that we know must be followed now, from no less a person than the previous Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), when he said in an article in The Guardian, which no doubt must have got him into serious trouble with his own party:
All in all, there are no miracles left. We have to face the unpalatable fact that with, at best low rates of economic growth, and at worst nil or even negative growth, public expenditure cuts will be necessary…this seems self-evident, yet even to whisper that a future Labour Government will have to cut public expenditure brings forth serious charges and dire threats of expulsion
or, indeed, if he did not say it, failure to be reselected by his constituency organisation.
I think that most hon. Members know perfectly well that the Government had no choice but to raise MLR the other week, just as the Labour Party had no choice but to raise it to 15 per cent. in October 1976. It is interesting to see what happened two or three months after the Labour Party raised MLR to 15 per cent., when the then Chancellor of the

Exchequer, in December of that year, had to come back to the House with the International Monetary Fund package, a package that was considerably deflationary and which substantially cut public expenditure in real terms the following year.
A number of interesting things happened in 1977 as a result of the IMF cuts. First, inflation fell. Secondly, interest rates fell. The spokesman for the Liberal Party, the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), who has now left the Chamber, implied that that was a result of the Lib-Lab pact. I do not think that anyone really believes that. I think that everyone believes that it was the result of the IMF cuts, which forced public expenditure down, and, therefore, forced interest rates down, and, therefore, forced inflation down. Unfortunately, once that had been done, the Labour Government then started spending again, and in 1978 and 1979 we found ourselves in our present difficulties.
The House will have noticed that there was one significant omission from the speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. Indeed, it was so significant that when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment came to his speech he had assumed that it would be there and had written something into it. I see the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook nodding. I am glad that he noticed the point. That was only a suggestion of a subsidy for mortgages.
I make this point because the Leader of the Opposition, in June of this year, rose at the Dispatch Box and referred my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the recycling arrangements which the late Mr. Anthony Crosland made in March 1974, soon after the Labour Government took office, when he advanced to the building societies £500 million as a loan to prevent mortgage interest rates from rising then. Clearly, by referring to that in the House in June of this year the Leader of the Opposition was expecting the Government to do the same. The Government did not do the same—any more than the Labour Government did the same in 1976 and 1978, when mortgage interests again rose sharply.
In 1976, for example, mortgage rates rose to a record level of 12¼per cent. On 9 November 1978, when the MLR


had risen again, mortgage rates rose again, to 11¾per cent., having come down in between.
There was no action by the Labour Government then. The only reason why the recycling exercise took place in March 1974 was that everyone in the country knew that there would be another election in six months' time. When that problem did not exist in 1976 and 1978, the Labour Government did the only effective thing that they could do. They continued with the IMF cuts, they continued with their policy of reducing public expenditure, solving the problem of IMF cuts, and they allowed mortgage interest rates to rise without taking any action in the matter at all.
That being so, one would have hoped for a rather more constructive attitude from the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook this afternoon. I hope that we shall have one from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) when he winds up the debate. I shall make a comment about him shortly.
The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook offered us no alternative strategy whatever. When interrupted by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney), who asked what his alternative policy was, there was a rather embarrassed mutter, as a result of which it appeared that his policy was that public expenditure should rise, taxes should rise and mortgage interest rates should come down. It was not immediately clear how those desirable aims were to be achieved.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman must think back to his days in the Cabinet, which, after all, are not so very long ago. He knows perfectly well that had he been a Minister now he would not have been advocating policies of that kind. He knows that had Labour won the election he would have been supporting a Labour Chancellor in the proposals for public expenditure cuts which that Labour Chancellor would have had to bring to the House in May or June of this year, and which the former Chief Secretary, the right hon. Member for Heywood and Royton, admitted in his article in The Guardian in September were essential.

I think that the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook was less than frank with the House in pretending that there were easy solutions to this problem.
We know the right hon. Gentleman's record over public expenditure. He was the man who got rid of the food subsidies which Mrs. Shirley Williams introduced. That was one of the contributions that he made to cutting public expenditure—and quite right he was, too, because those food subsidies were a total waste of money. They made no difference to inflation, and it was the right hon. Gentleman's job to unwind them.
However, I am less than encouraged to see that the right hon. Member for Ardwick will be winding up this debate. I am very fond of the right hon. Member, and he and I have had some good times debating with each other. I watched with fascination his correspondence in The Daily Telegraph with a Mr. Nichols, which I believe has now come to a conclusion. I remember the right hon. Gentleman, when he was Under-Secretary of State for the Environment during the passage of the Housing Rents and Subsidies Bill—I think that it was during the Committee stage in February 1975—saying something to the effect that he very much hoped that housing subsidies would be able to go up and up, and that he wanted to be able to embarrass the Chancellor by subsidies being higher and higher. I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his nod of assent.

Mr. Gerald Kaufman: Without having the record in front of me, I think that what I wanted to do was to embarrass my right hon. Friend by house building and, therefore, by seeing housing expenditure rising higher and higher. While I was at the Department, that happened. Unfortunately, with my departure it collapsed—but that was a coincidence.

Mr. Latham: The right hon. Gentleman has addressed the House with his usual modesty in these matters. We all know that the cause of his leaving the Department and the collapse of the housing policy subsequently under the Labour Government were interrelated. Whether everyone else would be so immediately convinced is a matter which I leave the House to judge.
However, the right hon. Gentleman, whether it be when he was in the Department of the Environment or subsequently in the Department of Industry, has not shown himself particularly conscious of the need for public sector economies. He has, rather, had a system of dipping his hand firmly into the taxpayer's pocket and throwing the money around as widely as he possibly can. I do not believe that that is a policy that is of any use to this country.
Therefore, if the right hon. Member for Ardwick and the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook are to criticise the level of MLR, they must explain, first, whether the Labour Party believes in monetary policy at all. If they do not believe in that at all, they must explain what the right hon. Member for Leeds, East did throughout the time he was Chancellor. They must also explain whether they believe in reductions in public expenditure. If they do not believe in such reductions, why was the former Chief Secretary so insistent in September of this year that they must take place?
These may be embarrassing questions to right hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench. They certainly were not alluded to in the speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. However, the right hon. Member for Ardwick has a splendid opportunity tonight. There is not a tremendous crush of Members wanting to speak. He will probably have a good period of time in which to deploy his alternative policies. He will be able to tell the House what his party's attitude towards monetary policy is, what it is towards subsidising mortgages, and what it is towards cutting public expenditure. But I bet that he will not do any of those things.

6 pm

Mr. Allan Roberts: The hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Latham) seems to fall into the same trap as many Conservative Members have been falling into recently. It is that of accusing the previous Labour Government of being profligate spenders and increasing public expenditure so that it was going through the roof and, at the same time, accusing the Labour Government of cutting public expenditure and of doing the same kind of things that his Government are now doing.
Conservative Members cannot have it both ways. They tried to have it both way during the general election campaign in claiming that they would cut public expenditure while not affecting essential services, such as housing and social services.
During the election campaign the Conservatives also claimed to be the friends of the owner-occupier, and yet we have now seen the present Government launch a massive attack on the owner-occupier by creating an economic situation in which it will be virtually impossible for many hundreds of thousands of owner-occupiers to pay their mortgages. It will also be virtually impossible in the foreseeable future for people on average and just above-average incomes to be able to afford to buy a house.
The Government's policy of forcing local authorities to sell council houses will also hit the owner-occupier. Their paranoia in attacking council housing and forcing council house sales in areas of housing shortage when local authorities do not want to sell is having, and will have, the spin-off effect of attacking and hitting owner-occupiers in those areas as well.
With the mortgage interest rates that now exist, and with council houses being sold, it will be virtually impossible for the owner of an average-priced house in a town or city area to sell that house. The market has been destroyed, as well as mobility within the owner-occupied sector. It will make the lack of mobility that we are told exists in the public sector of housing fall into insignificance.
Another effect of the Government's policies of increasing the MLR and forcing up mortgage interest rates is that it will do the opposite of what they suggest is their policy. As was said earlier, they are increasing the public sector borrowing requirement. They are increasing by a massive sum the amount of subsidy that will be paid by central Government to owner-occupiers. In 1977–78, when building society rates varied between 8½ per cent. and 11¾ per cent.—an average of 10 per cent.—tax relief from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to owner-occupiers cost £1,210 million. At 15 per cent., which is the present rate of interest, it would have cost £1,815 million. In the


next 12-month period it will cost far more than that, because outstanding mortgage debt is now greater than it was in 1977–78. It is likely to cost £2,100 million.
Conservative Members suggest that by quoting these massive subsidies, which they are supposed to be against, we are suggesting that we are against helping owner-occupiers. Not at all. Neither are we suggesting—certainly, I am not—that there should be a total end to income tax relief on the interest that an owner-occupier pays on his mortgage. But to pretend that these subsidies, as the Secretary of State did earlier, will go to working people, and that the Government are distributing wealth to working people, is the greatest piece of misleading information.
In fact, the opposite is true. The way in which we subsidise owner-occupiers is based on the unassailable principle that the richer one is, the more help one needs with one's housing. Let us look at the figures. A man with a £10,000 mortgage at a 15 per cent. rate of interest will get £450 tax relief if he pays income tax at the standard rate of 30 per cent. If that man is sufficiently well off to be taxed at 60 per cent., the help that he receives will be £900. If he is taxed at a rate of 75 per cent., because of investment income surcharge at 15 per cent. the help that he will receive will be £1,125. If he is taxed at a rate of 75 per cent. and has an investment income surcharge of 15 per cent., he is not likely to have a £10,000 mortgage. If such a person has a £25,000 mortgage, which is the maximum sum on which he can get tax relief, he will get help to the tune of £3,375 a year.
Therefore, the subsidies that are being handed out by the Government to owner-occupiers go to the people who are better off. The better off one is, and the bigger one's mortgage, the bigger the subsidy. All that I am suggesting is that that is iniquitous.

Mr. William Clark: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how much a man who is being taxed at 98 per cent. will receive?

Mr. Roberts: I do not have the figures, but I am glad that the hon. Member made that intervention, because the concern shown by Conservative Members for

people who are taxed highly contrasts sharply with their lack of concern for the council house tenant.

Mr. Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that under Labour a person on the 98 per cent. rate of tax got more subsidy than he is getting at the moment?

Mr. Roberts: No, I do not agree. As I have said, I do not have the figures relating to that tax band. However, there is a contrast between the subsidies that are given to owner-occupiers and the subsidies that are given to council house tenants. As I have shown, there will be a massive increase in the amount of subsidy that will go to owner-occupiers. This is at a time when the Government are freezing, and threatening to reduce, subsidies to the public sector and to council house tenants. This is particularly iniquitous because of the way in which the different systems work.
At present, subsidies that go to the public sector are directly related to the production of new houses or to the improvement or modernisation of older houses. A local authority receives subsidy in relation to the size of its house building programme or its improvement or modernisation programme. The opposite is true of the subsidies that go to the owner-occupied sector. If we stopped building private sector houses tomorrow—if no more houses were built for owneroccupation—subsidies to the owner-occupied sector would continue to increase. Only one-fifth of new lending is for new houses. Four-fifths of the lending to owner-occupiers relates to trading up—that is, a person selling one house and buying another that costs more—or to transfers from renting. If not one more new house were built, mortgage debt, and consequently tax relief on mortgages, would continue to increase by between 7 per cent. and 10 per cent. a year, even if interest rates did not increase.
There is something wrong with a system that causes subsidies to be handed out in this way. I suggest that the way in which we subsidise the owner-occupied sector is one of the things that is causing house prices to escalate, because we are subsidising the buying and selling of existing houses rather than the building of new houses.

Mr. Heddle: I cannot quite follow the hon. Gentleman's argument. If a would-be owner-occupier did not take the opportunity of buying his own home and remained on the council house waiting list, would that increase pressure on the public sector borrowing requirement? Does the hon. Gentleman accept that that is true?

Mr. Roberts: I am not one of those hon. Members who is particularly concerned about the public sector borrowing requirement. On the one hand, Conservative Members claim to be concerned, but on the other we have a Conservative Government who, because of their actions on interest rates, are forcing up the public sector borrowing requirement. I would welcome more pressure on the public sector borrowing requirement caused by the building of more council houses and the provision of more houses in both the public and private sectors.
I do not want to continue for much longer, because I know that other hon. Members want to speak. It is the greatest irony that we have a Conservative Government who can clearly be seen to be attacking the owner-occupier and who, by their policies and the way in which they have mismanaged the economy, will cause great hardship to existing home owners as well as to would-be home owners.
Finally, 2,500 families became homeless last year because they could not afford their mortgage repayments. With mortgage rates at the present appalling level, that figure will increase dramatically. It will be another massive extra burden placed on local authorities and voluntary organisations that are trying to deal with people who are homeless because they cannot keep up their mortgage repayments, which in itself will increase the public sector borrowing requirement.

Mr. John Major: I have listened to the debate with an element of growing astonishment, not only because of some of the arguments presented by the Opposition but also—if this is such a desperate and serious charge—the relative lack of fire in what they had to say. Notwithstanding the denials made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) at the outset of the debate that the present situation was partly the responsibility of the previous Government, the course of this

debate is the clearest possible evidence that the Opposition are well aware that their public borrowing legacy was a significant contributor to the present high level of interest rates and the rates that mortgagors have to pay.
No one—from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State who opened the debate to my hon. Friend who will close it, and every other Member who has spoken—denies that the present level of the minimum lending rate is a disaster for the country and something that we all wish to avoid and hope to see reduced at the earliest opportunity. That is not the matter in dispute.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook is not present. To treat the House, as he did, to a recitation of what the newspapers thought rather than indicate the Opposition's policy is not to give the debate the merit it deserves in the eyes of many whose mortgage and other borrowing interest rates are so high.
It is not a cause of dispute that mortgage interest rates are too high and that mortgagors will be hit. Although it has not been mentioned, the construction industry, which is so often the first casualty of high interest rates, may also be hit. That much is self-evident. We can all accept that that is so.
The hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) mentioned high interest rates as an element of deliberate Government policy. That is, at best, a half truth. It is true that the Government are prepared to have high interest rates to contain the money supply, because we believe that that is an important component, though not the sum total, in the control of inflation, but it is untrue to say that for some masochistic, self-destructive reason the Government have artificially forced up the level of interest rates. That is absurdly untrue.
The hon. Member for Truro, (Mr. Penhaligon), whose party is so concerned about this matter that its members seem to have left the Chamber after making their contributions, listed the many sectors of the community that he claimed voted Conservative—I have no reason to disagree with him—that would be badly hit by a high level of interest rates. The hon. Gentleman is right. Many of the supporters of the Government who gave


us such a clear majority at the last election will be affected by these rates. So it must surely be self-evident to everyone that the last thing that the Government would do as a deliberate act of policy would be to inflict a high interest rate unless it was for a purpose. That purpose, as we see it, is the control and reduction of future inflation. That is a policy that surely should be shared by all hon. Members.
We believe that we cannot achieve the containment of inflation, and with it the reduction of interest rates, without, first, a reduction of the public sector borrowing requirement and, secondly, control of the money supply. I believe that most Opposition Members will recognise that as being so, even if, at the moment, for understandable reasons, they are not inclined to admit it. The truth is that mortgage interest rates cannot be divorced either from other interest rates in our domestic economy or, as the hon. Member for Swansea, East stated, when he spoke rather well, from the general level of world interest rates.

Mr. Stuart Holland: If the hon. Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Major) believes that we cannot insulate mortgage interest rates from interest rates in general, will he explain how in the United States, for example, over most of the post-war period, mortgage companies have effectively done that in relation to Federal Reserve finance and how, on the Continent, mortgage financing effectively operates insulated from the rest of the banking system?

Mr. Major: That is a totally different system of finance, as the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Holland) is well aware. If he wishes to debate the American and British systems of financing housing, I should be delighted to do so, but not when there are five minutes or so left before the winding-up speeches begin.
A little earlier, Opposition Members charged that there was a measure of Government incompetence in relation to interest rates rising to their present level. There has been much rather sterile talk about "our interest rates never reached more than 15 per cent. and the Government have produced a minimum lending rate of 17 per cent." If one considers the position in relation to the rest of the

world one cannot, as has been said, isolate oneself from that. I believe that Opposition Members will agree with that.
At the time when the previous Government imposed a minimum lending rate of 15 per cent., the interest rates in New York were about 5 per cent. At present, when we have a minimum lending rate of 17 per cent., interest rates in New York are 15 per cent. or thereabouts. If relative incompetence is to be a charge on the present Government, they escape from that charge relatively unscathed.
A moment ago I mentioned the PSBR. That is an element of considerable concern in connection with our domestic levels of inflation and interest rates. Even after what the Opposition have charged as excessive cuts in public expenditure, the PSBR anticipated in the Budget was £.8¼ billion, and it is likely to be a little greater at the outturn of the year. The sheer difficulty of funding that amount is a material factor in connection with the level of interest rates. Surely that is something that the Opposition must recognise as partly attributable to the legacy that we inherited and one that we, in the short term, have been unable to do anything about. If, as I am sure they do, Opposition Members accept that we must contain inflation, they must also accept that we must seek to reduce the PSBR and consequently reduce, over a period of time, the general level of interest rates, not least in the interests of mortgagors.
I cannot understand how Opposition Members are able, at an early stage of this Parliament, to mount an attack in the terms of the motion without recognising their past contribution to the present situation. Whether Opposition Members like it or not, many owner-occupiers, or would-be owner-occupiers, not least in the council house sector, will see in the attitude of the Opposition a large measure of hypocrisy. Despite many Opposition Members opposing mortgage interest relief and other elements of policy that would lead to greater owner-occupation, they now bring this sort of motion before the House. I hope that the motion will be decisively defeated.

Mr. Walter Johnson: I shall be very brief because I know that


both Front Benches want adequate time to reply to the debate. One aspect of this problem that appears to have been overlooked is the role of the building societies. I am surprised that in the discussions that have taken place some pressure has not been brought to bear on the building societies and the role that they play. I understand that my right hon. Friend and other hon. Members on the Opposition Benches met the Building Societies Association recently, and the Secretary of State has made it perfectly clear that he intends to set up a working party to see how best these problems can be dealt with in future.
I suggest to the Secretary of State that the working party—I would call for something stronger, such as a committee of inquiry—should consider the activities of the building societies. There are over 300 building societies, all supposedly in competition with each other yet all charging basically the same rate of interest. In every High Street one can find as many as eight, 10 or even a dozen building societies, all with swanky offices. If it is not a wasteful organisation, I should like to know what is.
What has anybody done about that? Over the last eight years I have tried to get successive Governments to institute an inquiry into the activities of building societies. They spend vast sums of money advertising in the media and no one seems to question that at all. I think that it is completely unnecessary. Building societies are supposed to be non-profit making, yet they make vast profits in excess of liquidity and these go into the reserves, which are never touched.

Mr. Heddle: rose—

Mr. Johnson: No, I will not give way. I do not have much time, and the Front Bench speakers want to start their winding-up speeches very soon.

Mr. Heddle: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member referred to profits being made by building societies. I do not think that they make profits. Perhaps the hon. Member will elaborate.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is scoring his point, not making a point of order.

Mr. Johnson: I still say that the building societies make a profit at the end of each year. It then goes into reserves—

Mr. Heddle: indicated dissent.

Mr. Johnson: The hon. Member should look at the building societies' annual reports. He will then see what I am talking about. The building societies also employ part-time directors who attend meetings once every two months. Those same directors get an inflation-proof pension after 10 years' service. Is this right? I urge the Government to look seriously at some of these problems when they hold this committee of inquiry. If they are not prepared to do that, they should refer the activities of the building societies to the Monopolies Commission or some other committee of inquiry. They owe that to the country.

Mr. Gerald Kaufman: The frivolous and complacent speech by the Secretary of State, who is not in his place this afternoon, failed to match the seriousness of the situation that we are debating. We are now facing Britain's gravest housing crisis in post-war times. For both tenants and purchasers, finding and paying for a home will be more difficult and expensive than ever before. Fewer houses will be built, rents and house prices will hit an all-time record height, and finance will be scarce and more costly than ever before.
All this has not come about by accident. It is the direct consequence of policies pursued deliberately by this Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) pointed out, the Government's spending cuts have reduced the council house building programme to its lowest for more than a generation. This year and next the Government are cutting housing investment funds by £598 million—a devastating 21 per cent.
Last year's programme was poor, and no one makes excuses for it, but it will appear as a triumphant success compared with 1979–80. Housing starts are likely to be down by 25 per cent., and in turn 1980–81 looks like being even worse. Last week the Minister did not deny that council house starts in 1980–81 would total a miserable 45,000. Those are the facts behind the Secretary of State's bogus claim today that the Government are doing all that they can to encourage house building.
Not only will there be fewer new houses; all council houses will cost their tenants more than ever before. In his announcement 10 days ago on the rate support grant settlement, the Secretary of State smuggled in the confession that his rent guideline assumed an average rent increase of £1·50 a week. Life under this Secretary of State will make council house tenants long for the idyllic days of the Housing Finance Act.
The outlook is even grimmer for those who are buying a home and for those with an increasingly forlorn hope of buying one. It is constructive after only six months to contrast the record of the Tory Government, and the prospects ahead for home buyers under that Government, with the record and achievements of recent Labour Governments. While the Tories mouth slogans about helping home buyers and then kick them in the teeth, Labour Governments act to help those buying their homes.
Every positive action of recent years to help home buyers has been taken by Labour Governments. Labour introduced the option mortgage scheme, which so far has benefited 1,250,000 house buyers. Last year Labour introduced the home purchase assistance scheme for first-time buyers, and 55,000 first-time buyers have already benefited from that. Labour acted in 1974 when the mortgage rates were about to go up to 13 per cent. We kept them down with our loan scheme to the building societies at minimal cost to taxpayers.
Labour introduced the stabilisation scheme. Under the last Labour Government, house prices rose at less than three-quarters of the rate that they rose under the Conservative Government who were in office until 1974. Under our last Government, mortgage interest rates rose three times and fell five times. Under this Tory Government and their predecessor, mortgage rates fell once and rose five times, until they reached the all-time crisis record of 15 per cent.
It is not surprising that the rate of increase in home ownership under the last Labour Government was almost twice as great as that under the previous Tory Government. When Labour left office just over six months ago, more people owned or were buying their own

homes than at any time in this country's history. A massive 55 per cent. of all households were home owners. That progress towards a property-owning democracy with a substantial and growing public rented sector was brought to a grinding halt on 4 May.
Two Tory Ministers share the responsibility for that—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for the Environment. They are men obsessed with a purblind pursuit of salvation through usury. That obsession has led directly to the disastrous 15 per cent. mortgage rate announced last week.
Remember what the Chancellor told the House in his Budget Statement five short months ago. I quote:
The Budget is designed to give the British people a greater opportunity than they have had for years to win a higher standard of living.
He also said:
Every family in the land will have more money coming in."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 262–3.]
That was the promise made by the Chancellor in his Budget. Now we have the morning after.
My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East reminded the House today of how the Chancellor rhapsodised about the benefits that his Budget brought to a typical married couple with the husband earning £100 a week. The Chancellor told us that his income tax cuts would give this average man £4 a week in tax cuts. Of course, the Chancellor immediately swiped £2·75 of that back with his VAT and petrol duty increases. Even so, he told us, that would still leave Mr. Average with £1·30 a week more.
The Chancellor has soon settled Mr. Average's hash. If that man is repaying an average £12,000 mortgage over 25 years, he will now have to find another £6·78 a week in additional mortgage interest payments. That alone leaves him £5·48 worse off after this opportunity Budget—and that does not take account of the 25p a week extra in national insurance contributions imposed on Mr. Average last week by Newham's gift to Daventry. Newham's loss is Daventry's loss. Nor does it take account of his increased rate bill, his dearer television licence, prescription charges that have been increased twice over and all the other benefits bestowed upon him by this


bounteous Government. Presumably that was what the Secretary of State meant to-day when he said that he was transferring wealth to working people.
Not only are most mortgage payers much worse off after the Budget; they are being made to contribute towards making even richer the affluent minority who will still be better off. The Chancellor's monetarist monomania, by forcing mortgage rates up from 11¾ per cent. to 15 per cent., has foisted on Britain's 5,250,000 mortgage payers an additional annual tax of £996 million a year, or £190 a head. That cool £1 billion is the contribution that mortgage payers will have to make towards the £1,400 million tax relief that the Chancellor gave in his Budget to the 6 per cent. richest tax payers. At least, the mortgage payer should be grateful for one thing—he has a mortgage to repay. Countless others cannot get a mortgage at all.
The other achievement of the Government's dear money policy is the creation of unprecedented mortgage famine. As the president of the House-Builders Federation said about two weeks' ago,
The shortage of mortgages is almost unbelievable.
The chairman of the Building Societies Association confirmed to me last week that the building societies now give only seven loans for the eight that they gave last year.
Those are the grim facts at national level. However, in branches around the country would-be borrowers are now learning the facts of Tory life. This weekend, I spoke on the telephone to managers of several building society branches. No one place is completely representative and it is impossible to pick out an average town or city that represents all mortgage payers. However, I chose two localities that I believed might offer an interesting point of view. One was Finchley, the Prime Minister's constituency.
All the branch managers whom I telephoned in Finchley told me the conditions that they are laying down to would-be borrowers. They are making loans only to applicants who can prove that they have invested in their society for a prescribed minimum period. At the Nationwide and the Woolwich Building Societies in Finchley the prescribed minimum

period is six months and at the Anglia Building Society it is a year. If investors want to get the Abbey habit in Finchley as borrowers, they must have saved with the society for a minimum of two years.
That is not all. In most cases, Finchley man or woman is required to have savings with the society of his or her choice amounting to 10 per cent. of the loan that is sought. There is more to come. Societies are now looking in what one representative called "greater detail" at criteria affecting multipliers of income. That is the language used in Finchley—in Manchester we call it a means test. If Finchley man can clear all those hurdles, how long will he have to wait for a mortgage? At the Nationwide Building Society he will will do quite well. The Nationwide is a good building society—I invest in it myself. Finchley man will have to wait only until January. At the Abbey National Building Society he will have to wait until late January, the Anglia Building Society cannot help until mid-February, and at the Woolwich Building Society he will have to wait until March.
However, all that information is more cheerful than some that I was given by the other centre that I telephoned—Henley, the constituency of the Secretary of State for the Environment. I discussed the matter with the manager of the Portman Building Society. He was good enough to tell me that he voted for the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State in the election. He told me that his society
are having to say no to an awful lot of good investors".
The Abbey National Building Society told me that it had heard in nearby centres of borrowers phoning on Friday after the announcement about the 15 per cent. rate to cancel their dealings. The South of England Building Society branch in Henley told me that would-be borrowers, even if they satisfy all the conditions, will still have to wait until April for a mortgage. That is the crisis that the Secretary of State has visited upon his unoffending constituents.
Since his appointment, the Secretary of State has spent his time careering around the country on publicity jaunts. We all remember his bloodcurdling massacre of the quangos. That dauntless exercise resulted in the elimination of 0·017 per


cent. of the public sector borrowing requirement. No doubt that is what the Secretary of State meant today when he told us that he is making "massive savings" in the PSBR. Never mind—it won the Secretary of State a great deal of headlines. Of course, for our itinerant Secretary of State the shortest distance between two points is not a straight line but a headline.
Yet it was the Secretary of State who, when the mortgage rate rose to 9·75 per cent. under the Labour Government last year, declared from this Dispatch Box, with high indignation,
that the problems of the building societies are symptomatic of the declining confidence in the Government's overall economic policies."—[Official Report, 14 June 1978; Vol. 951, c. 993.]
Good words. They apply much more fittingly to the crisis created by the right hon. Gentleman's Government. Nevertheless, the Secretary of State is, after all, an amiable figure, who is always good for a laugh. The Daily Mail recently summed up his antics in a leading article headed, appropriately:
Another hoax by Headline Heseltine".
In this unprecedented mortgage crisis, there is someone much more significant whose personal credit is at stake—the Prime Minister. For years she has presented herself as the symbol of cheaper mortgages. We all remember that in September 1974, reported in The Times under that famous headline:
Tories pledge 9½ per cent. mortgage rate by Christmas",
she said:
Our plans for a 9½ per cent. mortgage are absolutely unshakeable.
It was the Prime Minister who wrote in an article in The Daily Telegraph:
The building societies' … difficulties are not of their own making, so it is only right that the Government should consider new ways of helping them to keep down the mortgage rate".
That article was headed:
What platform for the Tories—the owner-occupiers' party? 
In February, when the minimum lending rate rose for three weeks to 14 per cent., the right hon. Lady said that
an increase in interest rates to 14 per cent. is a potential disaster for home buyers … it is the home buyer and the small business who are having to pay the price for the Government's

economic failure."—[Official Report, 8 February 1979; Vol. 962, c. 550.]
It was the Prime Minister who signed last April's Tory election manifesto—on which all Conservative Members were elected six months ago—with that now notorious pledge which bears repetition:
The prospect of very high mortgage rates deters some people from buying their homes and the reality can cause acute difficulties to those who have done so. Mortgage rates have risen steeply because of the Government's financial mismanagement. Our plans for cutting Government spending and borrowing will lower them.
The Prime Minister is fond of justifying some of her more odious actions by claiming that she has a mandate for them. That is a mandate if ever there was one—a specific promise to lower mortgage rates. The Prime Minister has betrayed that promise and all those whom that promise deceived into voting for her.
However, she and the Secretary of State have found a new excuse for that betrayal. They blame the unprecedented mortgage rates on—wait for it—wage claims. The Prime Minister tried it on in the House last Thursday. The Secretary of State, with his penchant for lurid language, went one better in the statement that some of the press described as being made by a "rattled man". He blamed the increase to 15 per cent. on what he called
Vicious strike-backed inflationary wage claims".

Mr. Heseltine: That is right.

Mr. Kaufman: The Government came to power not only on a solemn promise, a mandate, to bring down mortgage rates but also on a solemn promise, a mandate, to champion free collective wage bargaining. As their manifesto put it
Pay bargaining in the private sector should be left to the companies and workers concerned".
That scapegoat will not run. The real culprits are sitting on the Government Front Bench. The Tory remedy for a genuine economic problem has created an unnecessary economic crisis. Home owners are the latest casualties of that Tory crisis, and that is why we ask the House to support our motion.

The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. John Stanley): I make


clear at the outset that in no way do we make light of the impact of present interest rates on those who have bought their homes, particularly those who have bought them fairly recently, on those wanting to buy and on the house building industry. However, it is the foremost interest of everyone, whether owning or renting a property, that inflation is controlled. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is absolutely right to make that his priority. In doing so, he is following a familiar path, well trodden by his predecessor.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Heddle) reminded us, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said, when he increased MLR by 2½ per cent:
If the Government were to … fail to take timely action when necessary and lose control of the money supply, the sufferings of the whole of the British people, whether mortgagors or not, would be infinitely more serious than suffering brought about by increases in mortgage rates".—[Official Report, 9 November 1978; Vol. 957, c. 1233.]
We have listened carefully to Labour Members. In speech after speech, we have heard the strongest condemnation of high mortgage interest rates, yet throughout the general election campaign and since then, in speech after speech, conference resolution after resolution and debate after debate in the House, the nonstop cry of the Labour Party has been for higher and higher public expenditure—which could only mean interest rates still higher than those that Labour Members have condemned.
My hon. Friends the Members for Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) and Huntingdonshire (Mr. Major) have referred to the size of the predicted expenditure of the Labour Government. To see the scale of that proposed expenditure, one needs to look no further than the motions tabled by the Opposition on the Supply days in this Parliament. Today is the sixth allotted day and on each of the previous five Supply days the Opposition motions have called for more public expenditure, which could only drive interest rates, and therefore mortgage rates, still higher.
As there is an Opposition motion before us, it is reasonable to ask what would be the levels of public expenditure, the public sector borrowing requirement, MLR and the mortgage rate if, by any

mischance, the Labour Party were conducting our affairs. I do not know whether Labour Members would wish to be credited with their election manifesto commitments on public expenditure, with the resolutions on public expenditure passed by their party conference or with their commitments to increase public expenditure as set out in their last public expenditure White Paper. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), who has been urging local authorities to
use the law at every turn to frustrate Tory plans",
would like to be credited with the lot.
Whether we take the 57 commitments to increase public expenditure set out in the Labour manifesto, the 10 Labour Party conference resolutions representing increased public expenditure passed last month, the White Paper commitment to increase public expenditure in real terms by 2·1 per cent. this year and a further 2·3 per cent. next year or the new commitment to expansion that the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook made on behalf of the Opposition today, it is beyond any, shadow of doubt that if the policies of the Labour Party were being pursued, interest rates and the mortgage rate could only be substantially higher than they are today.
The additional public expenditure required next year to finance the commitments in the previous Government's public expenditure White Paper, admittedly now repudiated by the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury—though by no one else on the Opposition Front Bench—would have amounted to £3,500 million. Today, as on every previous occasion, the Opposition have been conspicuously silent about how such a sum could be financed.
No doubt some Labour Members would say that it should be financed by a wealth tax, but that would leave about 90 per cent. of the £3·5 billion still to find. The standard rate of income tax would need to be 38 per cent. VAT would have to go to more than 20 per cent. Not even the right hon. Member for Leeds, East in his halcyon "We'll make the pips squeak" days advocated taxation of such a monumental order of magnitude.
Given the unwillingness of Labour Members to contemplate tax increases of


that size and their repeated opposition to further public expenditure cuts, the inescapable conclusion is that their expenditure commitments would have had to be financed overwhelmingly by borrowing. If it is necessary for MLR to be at 17 per cent. and the mortgage rate to go to 15 per cent. to finance the present borrowing requirement, one shudders to think to what levels both rates would have been driven in order to finance the reckless and vastly greater borrowing of the Labour Party.

Mr. Frank Dobson: Can the Minister confirm that the statistics that he has been throwing at us were prepared by the same civil servants as have managed to give misleading answers to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) and myself in the past?

Mr. Stanley: The figures in the public expenditure White Paper were the figures of the previous Administration.
If there is any single factor that lies at the heart of the present record level of interest rates, it is the monumental weight of debt put round the necks of every man, woman and child in this country over the past five years.
The most accurate observation made before the 1974 elections about the future Administration was that made by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook when he said:
We will be an expensive Government with an expensive programme. Our election Manifesto can hardly promise a taxpayers' Eldorado.
The right hon. Gentleman can say that again. Within one month of coming into office in February 1974, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East told the House with pride that he had secured the largest loan ever raised in the international capital markets. That set the pattern for the next five years.
I admit that along the way the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had his celebrated crisis of conscience when he said:
We cannot go on living on tick like this.
Unhappily, we went on living on tick and five years later the tick amounted to an extra £42,000 million—an additional burden of debt of £2,100 on every house-

hold in the land. We have heard a lot of talk about post-dated cheques, but that £42 billion is the biggest post-dated cheque of them all.
With the borrowing has come the debt interest. During the previous Government's term of office, annual expenditure in debt interest increased enormously in real terms. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, we would not have a borrowing requirement to finance this year were it not for the need to service our debt. On what possible grounds can Labour Members condemn present mortgage rates when they directly and inescapably relate to the need to finance debts incurred by the previous Labour Government?
A number of Labour Members have questioned our control of the money supply. Contrary to the erroneous impression that they have tried to convey, we have never maintained that money supply is the sole instrument of economic policy, but we consider that control of the money supply is one of the essential preconditions for controlling inflation. That will come as no great surprise to Opposition Members.
If there was any economic issue about which the Labour Government claimed greater virtue—in debate, in Question Time, and both inside and outside the House—it was their control of the money supply. During the last five years the pages of Hansard are littered with clarion calls from the right hon. Members for Leeds, East and for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) to control the money supply. Three years ago the right hon. Member for Leeds, East said:
the recent measures that the Government have taken to tighten credit and to ensure that their published guidelines for growth in the money supply are met in the current year are a necessary element for the fulfilment of their economic policies … Such adjustments may be painful, but this Government will not shirk from making them it the situation requires it. We did not shirk last week".—[Official Report, 11 October 1976; Vol. 917, c. 46–8.]
We did not shirk the week before last.
The Opposition have failed to explain why, having said emphatically three years ago that they would not shirk the consequences of controlling the money supply, they are willing to do so completely now.
Much has been said about election commitments. The memories of the Opposition are perhaps rather short. I seem to remember that during the 1964 election campaign a leading spokesman for the Labour Party suggested that if the Labour Government were re-elected they would consider mortgages of about 3 per cent. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) chose not to dwell on the clear commitment given in the 1974 Labour manifesto:
Local Councils' lending will be expanded so that they can play a major part in helping house purchasers.
In an intervention, the right hon. Member for Ardwick referred to the fact that the council house building programme collapsed only after he had left the Department. I listened, waiting for the right hon. Gentleman to say that, during the time that he was a Minister in the Department of the Environment, local authority mortgage lending had been nearly halved. While he was a Minister, money for local authority mortgage lending was deliberately switched out of mortgages into municipalisation. I listened for him to say that the previous Labour Administration had so reduced lacal authority mortgage lending that for the last three years the new amounts lent had been so low that they had been exceeded by the amount repaid.
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to play with words such as "conned", I suggest that he looks first at the Labour Administration's failure to fulfil their manifesto commitments on local authority mortgage lending. During the last election, the right hon. Member for Spark-brook referred to a Labour Party commitment. If that commitment had been implemented, it would have been an unmitigated disaster for home buyers. I refer to his commitment that mortgage rates should be made subject to the authority of the Price Commission. I wonder what the situation would be now if the Price Commission had become involved.
Both this November and last November—under the previous Labour Government—the building societies have had to respond rapidly to sharp upward movements of the minimum lending rate. If the building societies had been prevented from raising their interest rates by the intervention of the Price Commission, it would have resulted in punitive losses of

income for the 20 million building society investors and a catastrophic outflow of funds from building societies. That would have been the inevitable and disastrous consequence of that commitment.
The right hon. Member for Ardwick spoke in glowing terms of the achievements of the Labour Administration for home buyers. He did not mention that the annual average rate of increase in home ownership during the period of the Labour Government was lower than that of any Administration since that of Mr. Attlee.

Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman previously gave me a parliamentary answer—I have it in my hand—showing quite clearly that owner-occupation during the period of the Labour Government rose at nearly twice the rate during the period of the Conservative Government between 1970 and 1974. That information was given to me by the Minister.

Mr. Stanley: I have established that the annual average rate of increase in home ownership during the period of the Labour Government was lower than for any Administration since that of Mr. Attlee.

Mr. Kaufman: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is clear that the Minister is not giving way.

Mr. Kaufman: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman knows our customs. If the Minister does not give way, he must be allowed to continue.

Mr. Kaufman: rose—

Mr. Stanley: The right hon. Member for Ardwick chose to make no mention of the fact that in every year of the Labour Administration the number of mortgage loans extended to first-time buyers was below the record number of loans achieved by the Conservative Administration in 1971–72. The biggest contradiction is that, despite the right hon. Gentleman's protestations about concern for first-time buyers and everything that he said about the desirability of home ownership, he still advocates a policy of denying home ownership.

Mr. Kaufman: rose—

Mr. Reginald Freeson: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We now have three right hon. and hon. Members on their feet. If the Minister does not give way, he must be allowed to continue.

Mr. Stanley: The right hon. Gentleman still advocates that policy of denying home ownership to the largest group of potential first-time buyers—council tenants.

Mr. Freeson: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall say it for the third time so that the whole House will understand. If the Minister does not give way, it is our custom that he be allowed to continue with his speech.

Mr. Freeson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I accept what you have said. However, it is equally in order for hon. Members to seek to ask the Minister to give way.

Mr. Stanley: The speeches that we have heard concerning the difficulties experienced by first-time buyers would have carried more conviction if steps had been taken during the past five years to clear some of the more glaring legislative road blocks. However, nothing was done, apart from the ill-fated home loans scheme. No legislative measure was passed to ease the problems of first-time buyers. Many measures were talked about, but none appeared on the statute book.
No action was taken to allow housing associations to improve homes for sale, as well as for renting, thereby providing a new source of low-cost funds for first-time buyers. No action was taken to give local authorities the equivalent of an improvement

Division No. 110]
AYES
[7.01 pm


Adams, Allen
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough)
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)


Allaun, Frank
Bradley, Tom
Cohen, Stanley


Anderson, Donald
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Coleman, Donald


Archer, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.


Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)
Conlan, Bernard


Ashley, Rt Hon Jack
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith)
Cook, Robin F.


Ashton, Joe
Buchan, Norman
Cox, Tom (Wandsworth, Tooting)


Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)
Callaghan, Rt Hon. J. (Cardiff SE)
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)


Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton &amp; P)
Crowther, J. S.


Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)
Campbell, Ian
Cryer, Bob


Beith, A. J.
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cunliffe, Lawrence


Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood
Canavan, Dennis
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)


Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Cant, R. B.
Dalyell, Tam


Bidwell, Sydney
Carmichael, Neil
Davidson, Arthur


Booth, Rt Hon Albert
Carter-Jones, Lewis
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Lianeill)


Boothroyd, Miss Betty
Clark, David (South Shields)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)

grant so that they might improve properties for sale—especially to first-time buyers. No action was taken to remove the well-known legislative obstacles facing shared ownership schemes that are of particular benefit to first-time buyers. No action was taken to allow housing association tenants to convert a part equity share in their homes into full home ownership. No action was taken to give any council or new town tenants the right to buy their homes.

The verdict of The Times on the measures taken by my right hon. and learned Friend was that they were painful but necessary, and that in the long run the increase in MLR
will do far less damage than the alternative would have done.

The Opposition's motion represents a dismal combination of economic irresponsibility and political humbug. I ask the House to throw it out.

Mr. Kaufman: Before the Minister sits down, I should be grateful if he would clarify the answer that he gave to me in which he stated that in 1971, on the census, the percentages of all owner-occupied households was 50·2 and in 1974 was 52—an increase of 1·8 per cent.—and that by 1978 it had reached 55 per cent.—an increase of 3 per cent., or almost double the rate of increase under the previous Conservative Government. Is that reply inaccurate, is it to be involved in the inquiry into his other replies, or is he now admitting that what he said in his speech is untrue and that the reply that he gave to me is accurate? The House has a right to know one way or the other.

Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—

The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 304.

Davis, Clinton, (Hackney Central)
Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)


Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)
Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Robertson, George


Deakins, Eric
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)


Dempsey, James
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Rodgers, Rt Hon William


Dewar, Donald
Kerr, Russell
Rooker, J. W.


Dixon, Donald
Kilfedder, James A.
Roper, John


Dobson, Frank
Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)


Dormand, Jack
Kinnock, Neil
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)


Douglas, Dick
Lambie, David
Rowlands, Ted


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Lamborn, Harry
Ryman, John


Dubs, Alfred
Lamond, James
Sandelson, Neville


Duffy, A. E. P.
Leadbitter, Ted
Sever, John


Dunlop, John
Leighton, Ronald
Sheerman, Barry


Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale)
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton &amp; Slough)
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L)


Dunnett, Jack
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)


Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Litherland, Robert
Short, Mrs Renée


Eadle, Alex
Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)


Eastham, Ken
Lyon, Alexander (York)
Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)


Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)
Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)
Silverman, Julius


Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)
McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Skinner, Dennis


Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)
McElhone, Frank
Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)


English, Michael
McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Snape, Peter


Ennals, Rt Hon David
McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Soley, Clive


Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)
McKelvey, William
Spearing, Nigel


Evans, John (Newton)
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Spriggs, Leslie


Ewing, Harry
Maclennan, Robert
Stallard, A. W.


Fields, Andrew
McMahon, Andrew
Steel, Rt Hon David


Field, Frank
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central)
Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles)


Fitch, Alan
McNally, Thomas
Stoddart, David


Flannery, Martin
McWilliam, John
Stott, Roger


Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)
Magee, Bryan
Strang, Gavin


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Marks, Kenneth
Straw, Jack


Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)
Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley


Ford, Ben
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)


Forrester, John
Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)
Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)


Foster, Derek
Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Foulkes, George
Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)


Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood)
Maxton, John
Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)


Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Maynard, Miss Joan
Thorne, Stan (Preston South)


Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Meacher, Michael
Tilley, John


Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert
Tinn, James


Ginsburg, David
Mikardo, Ian
Torney, Tom


Golding, John
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Urwin, Rt Hon Tom


Gourlay, Harry
Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride)
Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.


Grant, George (Morpeth)
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)
Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)


Grant, John (Islington C)
Molyneaux, James
Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)


Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Watklns, David


Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Morton, George
Weetch, Ken


Hardy, Peter
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Wellbeloved, James


Harrison, Fit Hon Walter
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Welsh, Michael


Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Newens, Stanley
White, Frank R. (Bury &amp; Radcliffe)


Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)


Haynes, Frank
Ogden, Eric
Whitehead, Phillip


Healey, Rt Hon Denis
O'Neill, Martin
Whitlock, William


Heffer, Eric S.
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Wigley, Dafydd


Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)
Palmer, Arthur
Willey, Rt Hon Frederick


Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)
Park, George
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)


Home Robertson, John
Parker, John
Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)


Homewood, William
Pendry, Tom
Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)


Hooley, Frank
Penhaligon, David
Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)


Horam, John
Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)
Wilson, William (Coventry SE)


Howells, Geraint
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Winnick, David


Huckfield, Les
Prescott, John
Woodall, Alec


Hudson Davies, Gwilym Ednyfed
Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)
Woolmer, Kenneth


Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Race, Reg
Wriggiesworth, Ian


Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)
Radice, Giles
Wright, Sheila


Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)
Young, David (Bolton East)


Janner, Hon Greville
Richardson, Miss Jo



Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.


John, Brynmor
Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Mr. Hugh McCartney and


Johnson, James (Hull West)
Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Mr. Ted Graham.


Johnson, Walter (Derby South)






NOES


Adley, Robert
Bell, Ronald
Boscawen, Hon Robert


Alexander, Richard
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)
Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)


Amery, Rt Hon Julian
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon)
Bowden, Andrew


Ancram, Michael
Benyon, W. (Buckingham)
Boyson, Dr Rhodes


Arnold, Tom
Best, Keith
Braine, Sir Bernard


Aspinwall, Jack
Bevan, David Gilroy
Bright, Graham


Atkins, Robert (Preston North)
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Brinton, Tim


Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)
Biggs-Davison, John
Brittan, Leon


Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Blackburn, John
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher


Banks, Robert
Body, Richard
Brooke, Hon Peter


Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Brotherton, Michael







Brown, Michael (Brigg &amp; Sc'thorpe)
Heddie, John
Onslow, Cranley


Browne, John (Winchester)
Henderson, Barry
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally


Bruce-Gardyne, John
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Osborn, John


Bryan, Sir Paul
Hicks, Robert
Page, John (Harrow, West)


Buck, Antony
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)


Budgen, Nick
Hill, James
Parkinson, Cecil


Bulmer, Esmond
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Parris, Matthew


Burden, F. A.
Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Patten, Christopher (Bath)


Butcher, John
Hooson, Tom
Patten, John (Oxford)


Butler, Hon Adam
Hordern, Peter
Pattie, Geoffrey


Cadbury, Jocelyn
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James


Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)
Percival, Sir Ian


Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Peyton, Rt Hon John


Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)
Hunt, David (Wirral)
Pink, R. Bonner


Chalker, Mrs. Lynda
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Pollock, Alexander


Channon, Paul
Hurd, Hon Douglas
Porter, George


Chapman, Sydney
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg


Churchill, W. S.
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)
Jessel, Toby
Prior, Rt Hon James


Clark, Dr William (Croydon South)
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Proctor, K. Harvey


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Pym, Rt Hon Francis


Cockeram, Eric
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Raison, Timothy


Colvin, Michael
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Rathbone, Tim


Cope, John
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)


Cormack, Patrick
King, Rt Hon Tom
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Corrie, John
Kitson, Sir Timothy
Renton, Tim


Costain, A. P.
Knox, David
Rhodes James, Robert


Cranborne, Viscount
Lamont, Norman
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon


Crouch, David
Lang, Ian
Ridley, Hon Nicholas


Dickens, Geoffrey
Langford-Holt, Sir John
Ridsdale, Julian


Dorrell, Stephen
Latham, Michael
Rifkind, Malcolm


Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Lawrence, Ivan
Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey


Dover, Denshore
Lawson, Nigel
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)


du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Lee, John
Roberts, Wyn (Conway)


Dunn, Robert (Dartford)
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Rost, Peter


Durant, Tony
Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Royle, Sir Anthony


Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy


Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)
Lloyd, Ian (Havant &amp; Waterloo)
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman


Eggar, Timothy
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Scott, Nicholas


Elliott, Sir William
Loverldge, John
Shelton, William (Streatham)


Emery, Peter
Luce, Richard
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)


Eyre, Reginald
Lyell, Nicholas
Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills)


Fairgrieve, Russell
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Shersby, Michael


Faith, Mrs Sheila
McCrindle, Robert
Silvester, Fred


Farr, John
Macfarlane, Neil
Sims, Roger


Fell, Anthony
MacGregor, John
Skeet, T. H. H.


Fenner, Mrs Peggy
MacKay, John (Argyll)
Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton)


Finsberg, Geoffrey
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Speed, Keith


Fisher, Sir Nigel
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Speller, Tony


Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N)
McQuarrie, Albert
Spence, John


Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Madel, David
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)


Fookes, Miss Janet
Major, John
Sproat, Iain


Forman, Nigel
Marlow, Tony
Squire, Robin


Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Stainton, Keith


Fox, Marcus
Mates, Michael
Stanbrook, Ivor


Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Mather, Carol
Stanley, John


Fry, Peter
Maude, Rt Hon Angus
Steen, Anthony


Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.
Mawby, Ray
Stevens, Martin


Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)


Gardner, Edward (South Fylde)
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)


Garel-Jones, Tristan
Mayhew, Patrick
Stokes, John


Glyn, Dr Alan
Mellor, David
Stradling Thomas, J.


Goodhew, Victor
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)


Goodlad, Alastair
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove &amp; Redditch)
Tebbit, Norman


Gorst, John
Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Temple-Morris, Peter


Gow, Ian
Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret


Gower, Sir Raymond
Miscampbell, Norman
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)


Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Mitchell, David (Baslngstoke)
Thompson, Donald


Gray, Hamish
Moate, Roger
Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)


Greenway, Harry
Monro, Hector
Thornton, Malcolm


Grieve, Percy
Montgomery, Fergus
Townend, John (Bridlington)


Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Moore, John
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)


Gryils, Michael
Morgan, Geraint
Trippier, David


Gummer, John Selwyn
Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)
Trotter, Neville


Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&amp;Ew'll)
Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)
Vaughan, Dr Gerard


Hampson, Dr Keith
Mudd, David
Viggers, Peter


Hannam, John
Murphy, Christopher
Waddington, David


Haselhurst, Alan
Myles, David
Wakeham, John


Hastings, Stephen
Neale, Gerrard
Waldegrave, Hon William


Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Needham, Richard
Walker, Bill (Perth &amp; E Perthshire)


Hawkins, Paul
Nelson, Anthony
Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek


Hawksley, Warren
Neubert, Michael
Wall, Patrick


Hayhoe, Barney
Newton, Tony
Waller, Gary


Heath, Rt Hon Edward
Normanton, Tom
Walters, Dennis







Ward, John
Whitney, Raymond
Young, Sir George (Acton)


Warren, Kenneth
Wickenden, Keith
Younger, Rt Hon George


Watson, John
Wiggin, Jerry



Wells, John (Maldstone)
Wilkinson, John
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Wells, Bowen (Herl'rd &amp; Stev'nage)
Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and


Wheeler, John
Winterton, Nicholas
Mr. Anthony Berry.


Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Wolfson, Mark

Question accordingly negatived.

Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 32 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.

Mr. Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to, pursuant to Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply).

Resolved,
That this House, while recognising that the present level of mortgage interest rates will place an additional burden on home owners, realises that this group cannot be totally insulated from the general level of interest rates in the economy; and reaffirms its support for the essential measures which the Government has taken to reduce its claim on public expenditure and to combat inflation.

NATIONAL ENTERPRISE BOARD

Mr. John Silkin: I beg to move,
That this House condemns the action of Her Majesty's Government on Rolls-Royce which forced the unanimous resignation of the National Enterprise Board; and deplores the damage done to Britain's industrial reconstruction by the Government's policy.

Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.

Mr. Silkin: The motion has two aspects to it. The first is the unique occasion of the entire board of a nationalised corporation resigning, perhaps not at the instance of the Secretary of State but in direct opposition to his views. The second is not only the damage that this does but the damage to industrial reconstruction and to the prospects that flow from it.
I deal first with the resignation itself. As I say, it is unique. One has heard of the case where a chairman and a Secretary of State have had a difference of opinion. This can happen very often, and no blame need be attached to either if the chairman resigns. No blame need be attached to either if out of loyalty, friendship or conviction one or two of the chairman's colleagues decide to resign with him. But when a whole board resigns, it is at least open to question whether the handling by the Secretary of State is all that one would wish. If there is one thing that a Minister should be capable of dealing with, it is the management of men. Why else is he a Minister?
On this occasion the entire board found itself in total disagreement with the Secretary of State. What is interesting about it is that the Secretary of State cannot quote it as a very good illustration of the Government's philosophy. We have had many lectures from the right hon. Gentleman on the Government's philosophy towards industry and towards the nationalised industries in particular.
Only recently, on 20 November, the right hon. Gentleman gave us another little lecture. It was on the occasion of the Second Reading of the British Aerospace Bill. What he said then was in amplification of what he had said on many pre-

vious occasions. He said that the Conservative Government would not interfere at all in management and that their duty was merely to create an economic climate in which industry could flourish.
The first half of this Supply day shed some light on the economic climate that this Government have been creating, but to that I intend to return a little later. However, on 20 November the right hon. Gentleman was discussing the Government's relationship with British Aerospace, having been questioned about defence and other contracts between the Government and the proposed new company. He said:
We intend to maintain these quite separate from the Government's relation with the company as shareholders."—[Official Report, 20 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 228].
Here we have a new creation by the Government—about fifty-fifty Government and private. That was the basis of the British Aerospace Bill. But the argument was that the Government should maintain a totally separate basis and should not interfere in any way. We were dealing with a very large industry. British Aerospace is an enormous industry. There are enormous defence contracts upon which the whole aerospace industry depends, as well as other Government contracts. It was proposed that we should take this step because it was the Government's philosophy to let the industry get on with the job.
On 21 November, the following day, in a statement on Rolls-Royce, the Secretary of State informed the House:
Rolls-Royce is a company … with which, inescapably, the Government have exceptionally close connections and where important decisions lie directly with the Government."—[Official Report, 21 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 388.]
Was that not true of British Aerospace the day before? What happened in those 24 hours? We are told that the shareholdings leave the National Enterprise Board and go direct to the Secretary of State.
I said that on 20 November the Secretary of State had given us one example of his philosophy. We had another example on the following day, but a conflicting one. On 20 November he said something that I found extremely interesting in the light of events only 24 hours later. He


said that a business—the right hon. Gentleman always talks about business when he means industry, but I shall let that pass—would not function best when depending on Ministers and civil servants
however well intentioned they may be."—[Official Report, 20 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 216.]
I understand that. That is another example of the right hon. Gentleman's philosophy. The right hon. Gentleman says "Do not, whatever you do, let an important enterprise get into the hands of Ministers and civil servants, 'however well intentioned they may be'." It seems that on 21 November he goes back on the philosophy of 20 November. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be in a position to give us some further information when he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in a short while.
On two occasions during the proceedings in Committee on the Industry Bill my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) has asked whether it is true that the Midland Bank has been approached to act as a consultant for Rolls-Royce. To that question we have had no answer. If that is true, it indicates that there is a third basis rather than the two apparent conflicting philosophies. If it is not true, the policy of 20 November has been taken over by that of 21 November.
That is the right hon. Gentleman as a philosopher, but let us take him in another role that every Minister must have from time to time, namely, a peacemaker. As he said, it took him no more than a short while to realise that there was conflict between Rolls-Royce and the NEB. He said in his July statement that the National Enterprise Board would have responsibility for looking after the interests of national companies. He said that clearly. He added that the NEB would have his full support.
That was the right hon. Gentleman being clear and decisive. He was telling us exactly where we stood. However, in his statement on 21 November he told us that there was friction between Rolls-Royce and the NEB. He said that the friction
is inherent in the relationship"—[Official Report, 21 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 388.]
—that is, between the NEB and Rolls-Royce. It may be that he thinks that that

friction is inherent in the relationship between all holding companies and subsidiary companies. Is that true? In most instances holding companies and subsidiary companies work together.
It is true that there was a written memorandum of agreement between Rolls-Royce and the NEB. I grant that that is unusual. It does not often happen between a holding company and a subsidiary company. However, we are dealing with two important companies, each of which has a point of view. The written agreement, the peace treaty, that the right hon. Gentleman had backed—he had given his full support to the holding company in July—was well known to him. He was well aware of its contents. Therefore, he was well aware that the friction was exacerbated by certain criticisms that the chairman and board of the NEB had of the management of Rolls-Royce.
The criticisms—I shall not go into them beyond saying that they were important in the running of Rolls-Royce and in the company's direction—had the full endorsement of the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, he agreed with me only the other day that that was so. He had seen them before the half-yearly financial statement of the NEB appeared, on which occasion the criticisms were made public. He had seen them before the meeting took place.
Is it not true that the National Enterprise Board had brought to light criticisms with which the right hon. Gentleman agreed? We do not know about that as our questions have not been answered. They may or may not be criticisms which the Midland Bank will be called upon to consider and act upon as a consultant. As I have said, we do not know because our questions have not been answered. However, the criticisms were endorsed by the right hon. Gentleman, so the NEB was proved right.
If that is so, what made the right hon. Gentleman move from giving the National Enterprise Board his full support? He moved from that position to one so antagonistic towards the board that the whole board, even the non-executive directors, said "Thank you very much, we have had enough and we are resigning." Were the right hon. Gentleman's statements about non-interference not to be taken literally? Of course, he


has on so many occasions expressed his philosophies in the House. He did so as recently as the day before the statement in which he announced the resignation of the entire board. Were his statements about non-interference uttered in what might be described as Pickwickian language? I suggest that that must be so.
The old board resigned in toto and a partial board was appointed. The right hon. Gentleman says that he left vacancies. The vacancies were not being filled but the new half-board was appointed before he had accepted the full resignations that he knew would take place. He knew when he accepted the names of the new board that the entire old board would resign.
The right hon. Gentleman must answer our questions. Did he inform the new board members before he approached them to become members that the whole of the old board would resign, every one of them, including the non-executive directors? If he did so inform them, and I believe that he must have done, they knew for certain the penalty for disagreeing with the right hon. Gentleman, even if the whole board was unanimous. They knew that they must never question his view. They knew that they had to accept from the start their subordinate position to the right hon. Gentleman, which in many instances would mean a position subordinate to officials, however "well intentioned they may be". That is why the board will have no power and no independence.
When I deal further with the issue of independence, I come again to the agreement that was made between Rolls-Royce and the NEB. I refer especially to the part of it which confirms that, whenever the chairman of Rolls-Royce seeks a meeting with the Secretary of State, the chairman of the National Enterprise Board has a right to be present. That is obvious if they are discussing Rolls-Royce matters. That is why I dismiss from my mind the answer given me by the right hon. Gentleman. I probed him twice, but he never properly replied. He merely told me that he had had a private meeting with the chairman of Rolls-Royce. He said that that was to discuss chairmanship. I believe that the chairman of Rolls-Royce had intimated to the permanent secretary

—I am not certain whether he should have told the permanent secretary without telling the chairman of the NEB—that that was what the private meeting was about.
What the Secretary of State did not tell me was how many meetings he had alone without the chairman of the National Enterprise Board having been invited but with civil servants present on a minuted basis. It is important that we should know that information. His words were:
I said that I had had only one meeting privately with the chairman of Rolls-Royce. Of course, one meets both the chairman of the Board and the chairman of Rolls-Royce on occasions other than private meetings."—[Official Report, 21 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 392.]
That is not the answer to the question I put. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will now give me the answer.
If the National Enterprise Board is to have independence, it must have not only a board that is independent but also a staff that is conscious that it is independent. Its morale depends entirely on that. If the staff know that any views expressed, though approved by the board, can simply be vetoed by the Secretary of State and, if necessary, the whole board asked to resign, there will not be very good morale in the NEB.
It is also the essence of independence, which protects the staff and the public, to have a strong board. A number of names, some of them distinguished, have been given as members of the new board. How can such a board ever develop the strength of the old board without trade union members? It has not got trade union members. One reason is that trade unionists regard with distaste the fact that Rolls-Royce has been taken away from the National Enterprise Board. I do not know whether that alone would have made them refuse membership. The basic reason was that the board was never consulted. There were no meetings with the Secretary of State. The board was never allowed to develop its views. The right hon. Gentleman merely said "I know you have offered your resignation if I decide to take Rolls-Royce away. Very well, I accept your resignation."
The tragedy is that management and trade union members of the National Enterprise Board during its two years


of existence have worked closely together. They have worked together well as a team in working sector groups and in NEDO. What will be the effect on that? I must confess to feeling disturbed about the possibility of considerable damage being done to that partnership. The damage goes much wider. It will affect the whole of our industrial reconstruction. How is the new board, whether a half board or, at some later stage, a whole board and staff, to do its job, even one as emasculated as that given to it? Perhaps this is where the Midland Bank comes in—

Mr. Michael Grylls: As the right hon. Gentleman is talking about the NEB in general terms, will he comment on the action of his hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield)—I was not able to warn him that I would be raising this point—who marched in Birmingham with the Communist shop steward, Mr. Robinson, in direct encouragement of a strike that could be crucial to British Leyland? Does the right hon. Gentleman approve that sort of action by one of his Front Bench spokesmen?

Mr. Silkin: My hon. Friend will have to answer for himself. No doubt he will. I was dealing with the National Enterprise Board. My marching days—

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Edwards): Disgraceful.

Mr. Silkin: The right hon. Gentleman must be careful at this moment. I have to say that. His own record during the past day or two has not been totally lily-white. I am thinking of Port Talbot.
The serious aspect of this matter is the damage to industrial reconstruction. I asked how the board and staff were to do the job in the circumstances. It will be interesting if the Secretary of State can tell the House whether the board and staff knew that any independent decision to which they may come is subject either to the Secretary of State's ultimatum and diktat or perhaps to the diktat of the Midland Bank, which would be even worse.

Mr. George Park: Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State whether he has con-

sidered whether he is entitled to take these actions in regard to the NEB in advance of the passing of the Industry Bill?

Mr. Silkin: I dare say that the Secretary of State can answer for himself. I shall try to help him out. I imagine that he is entitled to take this action, strictly in law, because he can do what he likes with the National Enterprise Board at any time. That is exactly the trouble in which we find ourselves. I am sorry to be brief in reply to my hon. Friend. I am conscious that this is a short debate. Many of my hon. Friends and no doubt hon. Members on the Government Benches are anxious to speak.
Another matter to which I wish to refer is the uncertainty. We have several times asked the Secretary of State what is to happen at British Leyland. It is not only that hon. Members in this House have a right to know. It is also a fact that the whole motor car industry and the country have a right to know.

Mr. Nick Budgen: Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the proposals by Mr. Robinson that any restructuring in British Leyland should be stopped by sit-ins?

Mr. Silkin: I have not seen such a proposal. This is not the place to comment on that. This is the place to comment on the National Enterprise Board, as I am trying to do.

Mr. Budgen: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Silkin: I will not give way. There is no time and I cannot answer frivolities. What the country needs is a rescue operation—

Mr. Frank McElhone: It needs a new Government.

Mr. Silkin: That is right. It could get a rescue operation through a new Government. It is possible, however, that, for a month or two, we are landed with the old one. It would be pleasant if we had the same powers over this Government as the Secretary of State took over the National Enterprise Board.
We need industrial reconstruction. We need it badly. Time is going fast. We have seen the regional functions cut away. We have seen £250 million, £50 million in


Scotland, cut off regional aid. The functions in the North and the North-West are the only ones left regionally to the National Enterprise Board and a staff that are likely to be demoralised by what has happened.
The general role of encouraging public enterprise has been taken away from the National Enterprise Board. Much of its role in acting as a catalyst in private enterprise has also gone. As a result of action in the last few days, the adult education role which the right hon. Gentleman thought that the Board might continue to operate with new companies, because the private sector was unable or unwilling to help, is under pressure from the right hon. Gentleman. This has happened despite the limitation for which the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Carlisle) requested when he called on the Secretary of State to return companies other than Rolls-Royce to the private sector
as soon as they can face it."—[Official Report, 21 November 1979; Vol. 974, c. 398.]
This has taken place on top of an economic climate that the right hon. Gentleman was going to substitute for good industrial reorganisation. It is an economic climate that has brought a minimum lending rate of 17 per cent. and a cut in public spending on roads of £200 million. How does one get industry moving without roads? The steel industry, shipbuilding and the textile industry have been decimated. Only one additional brick is being added to the wall of intransigence and dogma that we see tonight. I appeal to my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the motion in the Lobby.

The Secretary of State for Industry (Sir Keith Joseph): I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
'welcomes the Government's decision on Rolls-Royce, expresses its appreciation of the services of the members of the National Enterprise Board who have recently resigned, welcomes the appointment of a strong new board to carry forward the work of the National Enterprise Board and the intention to make further appointments, and endorses the Government's determination to strengthen the role of private capital in industrial reconstruction.'.
The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) devoted most of his speech to the resignation of the entire board of the NEB. He warned us that he would spend an equal amount of time on the

damage done by the resignation of the board to the reconstruction of British industry. In the event, he did not spend that time on the second subject. I do not think that he was able to pursue it because the House would have laughed at the claim that the regeneration of British industry depended on a single board, no matter how distinguished.

Mr. John Silkin: The Secretary of State must read Hansard tomorrow. He will find that he is quite incorrect. At no time did I say that I would give equal time to the two matters. I said that this was to be a very short debate. I was interrupted by Conservative Members on two occasions.

Sir K. Joseph: The right hon. Gentleman said that there were two headings to his speech. He developed one and neglected the other, presumably because it was too weak to develop.
My right hon. and hon. Friends and I have no criticism of the National Enterprise Board, which has, much to our regret, resigned. We have respect for the members of the board as individuals, and the disagreement was no reflection upon them either as individuals or as a board. They were given a very difficult role to fulfil when, in addition to all their other tasks, the last Government required them to conduct monitoring of Rolls-Royce.
I and my right hon. and hon. Friends on coming into office inherited what can only be described as a state of friction between two distinguished boards. I made inquiries of the NEB within a month of coming into office about the prospects for Rolls-Royce.

Dr. John Cunningham: Does the Secretary of State really dismiss what is in effect the constructive dismissal of the chairman of the TUC economic committee so lightly?

Sir K. Joseph: I do not accept that there was any constructive dismissal. I shall reply to the speech of the right hon. Member for Deptford in sequence, and I shall come to that point.
I began on the assumption that there was a simple friction of personalities causing a difference of view between the boards of Rolls-Royce and the NEB. As the months passed I came more and more to the conclusion that this issue was not


one of a simple conflict of personalities but an incompatibility of the roles of the two boards, given the unique relationship between Rolls-Royce and the Government. I explained that to the House in my statement and in answer to questions on it last week.
When I told the NEB board of the Government's decision, I was faced with the categoric reply that if the decision were adhered to the board as a whole would resign. I make no criticism of the board for taking that decision. The members of the board took it honourably and, as they saw it, in the interests of the country. But it was they who faced the Government with the categoric decision after the Government, in seeking to resolve the friction which had existed since long before we came to office, decided to carry out one of the options open to them.
I realised that the result of adhering to that decision might be to lose all the members of the National Enterprise Board. Let us consider, however, the choice with which the Government were faced. On the one hand was the decision of the Rolls-Royce board to resign if it were left under the supervision of the NEB. On the other hand was the categoric assurance by the NEB that if a decision to separate the two boards were made its members would all resign. I should have been criticised whichever choice I had made.
If I, by my decision, had lost the entire board of Rolls-Royce, that would have been one lot of criticism. We came to the other decision, and the right hon. Member for Deptford has criticised me. He has done so because I did not manage to succeed in the almost impossible task, which had baffled my Labour predecessor, of acting as peacemaker between these two boards.

Mr. Phillip Whitehead: Does the Secretary of State not accept that the antipathy to the NEB within Rolls-Royce came largely from Sir Kenneth Keith? Does he not agree that since Sir Kenneth had intimated that he was about to retire, all the Secretary of State had to do was to wait for the retirement and, indeed, to expedite it?

Sir K. Joseph: Sir Kenneth Keith had presided over a remarkable success story. He had presided over a team that had

achieved a remarkable success in putting Rolls-Royce back in joint lead in the markets of the world for aero engines. It is true that I knew of his intention to resign. However, I also knew that among that small group of people capable of taking on the chairmanship of Rolls-Royce and qualified to succeed Sir Kenneth there was widespread—I do not say total and universal—reluctance to take the chairmanship if Rolls-Royce were left under the supervision of the NEB.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Sir K. Joseph: I will not give way. I an anxious to make a brief speech.
The right hon. Member for Deptford went on to tease me with a couple of inconsistencies. He said that because I believed and had said that businesses would flourish best if they were answerable not to Ministers and civil servants but to consumers and investors, therefore I was being inconsistent in saying that when I had the power—which will be when the Industry Bill becomes law—I would transfer the shares to the holder of my office. However, there is no inconsistency because it is my earnest hope that sooner rather than later Rolls-Royce will also go into the private sector. This is merely a transitional stage.
The right hon. Gentleman then went on to tease me about moving Rolls-Royce from the hands of the NEB into the hands of Ministers and civil servants. However, the point of the move is that Rolls-Royce at the moment is in the hands not of one of those layers but of both. It makes sense that Rolls-Royce, in its unique position, should be relieved of the double supervision.

Mr. Park: In examining the choice before him, did the Secretary of State consider examining the causes of the friction between the chairman of Rolls-Royce and the chairman of the NEB?

Sir K. Joseph: In so far as it was proper for a Minister to know what had happened before he took office, I knew that the friction existed before the change of Government. It was not proper for me to inquire what had happened before. I had concluded from my analysis of what I knew from my time in office that the problem would not be resolved simply by a change of personalities.
The right hon. Member for Deptford asked me two or three specific questions. The Department has not had any contact with the Midland Bank about possible employment of consultants in relation to Rolls-Royce. The Department is continually in discussion with banks, businesses and professional houses about the part-time or full-time secondment of individuals from those establishments. For all I know—I do not keep in touch with it—there may be a discussion with the Midland Bank about the secondment of an individual. If so, it has nothing to do with the monitoring on anything else of Rolls-Royce.
I was asked whether I had given the House full information about any private meetings that I might have had with Sir Kenneth Keith in breach of—

Mr. John Silkin: Not private.

Sir K. Joseph: —about any meetings that I might have had with Sir Kenneth Keith in breach of the memorandum of understanding. I have here to correct an error. I told the House under questioning last week that I had had one such meeting with Sir Kenneth Keith. I was wrong. I had two such meetings with Sir Kenneth Keith. I had a private lunch with Sir Kenneth Keith in addition to that. However, that had no relationship whatever to the NEB. I had a private lunch at which I was told something about the business. It was not relevant in any way to the subject that we are discussing, whereas one of the two meetings that I had, which was attended for part of the time by one civil servant, did have as its theme the position of Sir Kenneth Keith as chairman of Rolls-Royce and his determination, as he previously warned my permanent secretary, to leave that office at about the end of this year.

Mr. Silkin: The real point of the question is the memorandum of agreement. Was the chairman of the NEB invited?

Sir K. Joseph: No, he was not. These were two specific meetings about the proposed resignation of Sir Kenneth Keith. He was not invited. I was, perhaps—I am not sure—in breach of the memorandum of understanding. I may have been. But it had nothing to do with the relationship between Rolls-Royce and

the NEB; it was about the personal decision of Sir Kenneth Keith.
I was asked whether the members of the new NEB board were informed that they were being asked to fill vacancies that would be left if the then existing NEB board members all resigned. The answer is "Yes". They were informed. The approach to them was made on the assumption that the outcome of the present discussions would be followed by the realisation of the threatened resignation of the entire board.
I must assert that the distinction of the names of the new members of the NEB is sufficient assurance of their integrity and independence. However, it must also be recognised by the House that these individuals who were invited to become directors of the NEB were all well aware of the philosophy of the Government towards the board. They had made themselves aware of the general theme that was expressed by my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself in the House.
My right hon. Friends and I very much regret that, for reasons which we understand, the trade union members have not been replaced. I have not even approached individual representatives of the trade unions to ask them to accept membership at the moment, as I am advised that that would not be productive. However, I hope that the time will come when the trade unions will recognise that the NEB still has a role to play which it regards as important and which is in the national interest as well as the interests of the trade unions and their members, so that individuals from the trade unions will take the vacant seats left for them.
I was asked by the right hon. Member for Deptford about the implications of the Government's decision for British Leyland. I can only repeat that the British Leyland board has made a case to me to be treated in the same way as Rolls-Royce. I acknowledge that there are some factors that are similar to those in the Rolls-Royce situation, but I do not regard British Leyland as on all fours with Rolls-Royce. I shall therefore listen carefully to any case that the British Leyland board makes to me. It is a very distinguished board. However, I do not in any way commit myself to giving it the same answer as was given to Rolls-Royce. I shall listen to its case.
I want to emphasise that there is no difference—nor has there been any difference—between the NEB, Rolls-Royce, the Department of Industry and myself on the imperatives facing Rolls-Royce, which has had a triumphant success in getting a huge order book. That huge order book in itself involves extra cost in carrying the necessary stocks and investment for carrying out the order book. While the orders have been secured, the exchange rate has gone against Rolls-Royce. The differential inflation rates have also gone against Rolls-Royce. There is a clear need—Rolls-Royce, the NEB and the Government recognise it, and have recognised it for some time—for Rolls-Royce to improve its financial and productivity performance. Sir Kenneth Keith has acknowledged that in his speeches for some time.
The Government very much regret that the unavoidable choice which had to be made by the Government in the situation—and which was inherited by the Government but not created by them in any way—led to the disappearance of a distinguished board of people. We regret that it has not been practicable at this stage to fill all the seats of the NEB, as we would wish. The vacant seats for trade union representatives remain. At the appropriate stage I shall seek to secure that they are filled.
I must refer to the point from which the right hon. Gentleman flinched. We must neither exaggerate nor underestimate the role of the NEB. In its early years the board was dogged by the excessive pretensions imposed upon it at the time of its birth. The House will remember that it was born as the central plank in the great programme envisaged or dreamt up by the previous Government under the pretentious title "The Regeneration of British Industry".
A single board, however distinguished, cannot bring about the regeneration of British industry, especially when the Labour Government, which set up the NEB, proceeded to imprison British industry in the most hostile climate that had been known for decades. Therefore, I emphasise that the NEB had a useful and important role to play, but we do the country, the board and its valuable staff no service at all by exaggerating that role. It will be played by the new board, although I very much regret the absence

of trade union members, as well as it was by the last board. As the amendment shows, the Government wish to pay tribute to the service of the former board. We believe that the board will be strengthened. We hope that it will be strengthened in due course as a result of the return of trade union members. We believe that the more that private enterprise plays its full part in investment and expansion of industry, the better. We welcome the new board because it shares that philosophy with the Government. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will reject the motion and vote for the amendment.

Mr. T. W. Urwin: First, I join my right hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) in condemning the situation that led to the mass resignation of the whole of the NEB board, including the chairman, Sir Leslie Murphy. At the same time I point out to the Government that the board was composed of men of the highest integrity, drawn from industry—industrialists themselves—and prominent leading trade unionists. They achieved for themselves the unique distinction of having worked tremendously hard to make a success of what was in every respect a difficult role to fulfil. I only hope that the new board, when it is completed, will achieve, in turn, at least an equal reputation.
I remind the Secretary of State for Industry of his statement last week that certain places on the board had been left vacant and that he was writing that day to the TUC. What kind of response did he get from the TUC? Presumably the letter was based on an invitation to the TUC to provide names of people who might become members of the board.

Sir Keith Joseph: The letter did not contain an invitation. It contained a lengthy explanation of what had happened.

Mr. Urwin: I am grateful to the Minister for that correction. I should have thought that if it was not done on that date it should have been suggested to the TUC by now that it should consider making nominations to fill those vacancies.
I wish to draw a veil over recent events and to some extent to attempt to broaden


the debate. The actions of the Government in the last few weeks over the National Enterprise Board, Rolls-Royce and the denationalisation of certain public enterprises have created a good deal of anxiety in the minds of many people in the industrial world—not least among those experiencing difficulty in finding employment. There are youngsters looking for their first jobs as well as many steel men who have been regularly displaced from industry. Some of the questions that will be posed on that subject in the debate need answers.
I recall that one of the important roles of the National Enterprise Board was to supplement investment in industry where the private sector was failing, in many cases where risk capital was not being invested and was not likely to be invested. The Government amendment to the Opposition motion states, among other things, that the House
endorses the Government's determination to strengthen the role of private capital in industrial reconstruction".
Those words might sound optimistic, but, when we have just learnt that industrial capital investment declined by 2·5 per cent. in the last six months in comparison with the previous six months, we are entitled to be pessimistic about the comments in that amendment and about reliance on private investment. The present position may be due to a downturn or a cyclical trend, but it carries with it the inevitability of increasing unemployment. It creates an opportunity for us to fill the gap in industrial development by the simple expedient of allocating more capital resources, rather than less, to the NEB.
The National Enterprise Board is one of the sacrificial lambs to the Government's policy of massive cuts in public expenditure, many of which are wholly unsocial and a further manifestation of a high degree of political dogma. One hopes that the NEB will not be left simply to deal with emergency cases—the hospitalisation of lame ducks, and so on—that sufficient growth capital will be made available to small firms, which are the seed corn of industry in many areas, and that there will be increasing investment in new technology, especially in the exciting and new development of microelectronics.
Japan and the United States are rapidly developing a monopoly in these matters. The United Kingdom will suffer an escalation in job losses as a result of the use of these new technologies, while not having the opportunity to participate fully in the industrial revolution which will improve the living standards of millions of people not only in this country but in other parts of the world. That is the logical outcome of greater investment in the microchip industry.
This is not the time to extend the debate to cover the social consequences of this industrial revolution in microelectronics, but today I received two letters from highly responsible groups of people in different parts of the country, pointing out the importance of planning ahead against the development of this industry, the threat to jobs, the use of leisure, and ensuring in general terms that no one is worse off as a result.
I feel that we are entitled to speculate about the future role of the National Enterprise Board in the light of Government policy. I am prompted to ask the Minister, when he winds up the debate, to say whether the Government are as fully committed as their immediate predecessors were to the regional policy aspects of the work of the NEB. Those Labour Members who were then in the Government, especially those hon. Members representing the development areas, will recall how we greeted enthusiastically the proposal to set up the National Enterprise Board and how we cried out for badly needed investment in industry. We welcomed the innovatory role of the NEB and looked forward with considerable anticipation to the spin-off result that we expected from the work of the NEB.
We had then, and still have, the Northern regional board and the North-Western regional board. I should like to know whether the Secretary of State and his colleagues are genuinely committed to a regional policy. Will the regional boards continue to operate in the future as they have done over the past few years?
I listened to the dispassionate approach of the Secretary of State last week when he answered questions on the Rolls-Royce issue. I could not gather any degree of enthusiasm about the Government's


policy towards the regions. If the Secretary of State is only mildly enthusiastic about regional policy, surely he will consider—it is not too late—implementing the commitment by the outgoing Labour Government to set up a Northern Development Agency, which could work as a complement to the National Enterprise Board and make its own significant contribution.
It is not too late for the Secretary of State and his colleagues to undergo a transformation or conversion, as did St. Paul on the road to Damascus. When the Minister winds up the debate, I hope that he will give us some hope about the future role of the National Enterprise Board in relation to the northern regions.

Mr. Peter Emery: I found the opening speech from the Opposition unusually ineffective. The right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) added nothing new to what he said during Question Time last week when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made a statement. He put the matter much more concisely during Question Time than in his speech today.
I am sorry that it has been proved necessary for the members of the National Enterprise Board to resign. I believe that it was right and proper that my right hon. Friend should state clearly and simply what caused the resignation, as he saw it, but, even more important, that he should pay particular tribute to the members of that board for their considerable service to the country in the past.

Mr. Ted Leadbitter: Will the hon. Member bear in mind that this House has not yet had an explanation of what was wrong? All we have had is a fictitious description. When we are making comments about the commendable work of the NEB, this House had better be sincere about it and insist that we should have more information.

Mr. Emery: I respect the hon. Gentleman, as I know he respects me, across the Floor of the House, but I think that it would be better if he were not to make his speech by way of an intervention in mine.
I wish to turn now to one, and only one, aspect that arises because of the

resignation, and that is obviously tied up in the industrial reconstruction mentioned in my right hon. Friend's amendment. The political control of industries, either nationalised or with large public sector shareholdings, has been for many years and still is today one of the more complex problems still requiring a solution from politicians. Indeed, the very nature of the motion and the amendment on the Order Paper this evening, and now under discussion, is active proof of the truth of my hypothesis.
What is strange is that hon. Members on both sides of the House, while differing so much in philosophy and entirely unable to agree on the extension or otherwise of nationalisation, are likely to be in complete agreement about the ends desired of nationalised industries. By this I mean that when institutions or industries are in the ownership of the public, the management of those industries and Ministers—whether Tory or Socialist—responsible for those industries wish to see them functioning as efficiently as possible and with the greatest benefit possible for the British people—who, after all, are the taxpayers, and in this instance the shareholders.
What is quite evident is that neither side of the House has evolved or developed a method of management or of managerial control that is satisfactory either to the industries themselves or to our supporters on either side of the House. After all, it was the Socialists who appointed Sir Michael Edwardes, yet many Opposition Members are today baying at his heels over the strong action for which I wish the House would give him support in the reorganisation of British Leyland.
Although they were appointed by the Socialists, it must be admitted that there are several highly successful entrepreneurial capitalists among those who have just resigned from the NEB. If any of my colleagues doubt me, they have only to look at the record of Sir Jack Wellings, who has brought a marvellous breath of fresh air to those nationalised bodies to which he has generously given much time since he joined the Coal Board in 1973. If we could get away from political claptrap, the debate could be of real interest and real use in finding a solution to the problem of the management of public enterprises and nationalised industries.
Before I set out to give the House one thought that I have on this matter, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister who is to reply to the debate several questions that I hope will establish the background to the thinking that I am trying to put to the House.
As Rolls-Royce has been taken away from the NEB, how is the supervision of that company to be carried on by Ministers? It is all very well to suggest that certain guidelines will be set by the Secretary of State and that the fulfilment of these will be the basis of the judgment of the success or failure of the company. But life is not as simple as that, and the civil servants within the Ministers' departmental control cannot and will not leave the matter in such an amorphous position. These civil servants have to protect their Minister. They will protect him, just as they protected Ministers in the past, and just as they protected me when I was lucky enough to serve in that Department.
The guidelines that are being carried forward will need to be looked at, and the advice of these civil servants will be sought by the management of Rolls-Royce on investment decisions, on closure decisions, and even—although it may be denied—on decisions concerning levels of remuneration. The Department of Industry will have to react to these inquiries. If anyone is in doubt about this, let me refer to a note circulated by the director of public affairs of Rolls-Royce Ltd, only today, in which he says, in paragraph 1, that
All major policy decisions have always been taken by the Government, which has never ceased to monitor the company's performance closely through both the Department of Industry and the Ministry of Defence.
If anyone doubts what I am saying, let him consider that statement by Rolls-Royce.
How many civil servants does the Minister envisage will now be employed in working and monitoring and consulting on the Rolls-Royce account? By way of contrast, I should like to know how many people were employed by the NEB to do the same task.
Why does the Minister believe that the excellent civil servants in his Department—and I mean that only as a matter of

praise—will be any better at the somewhat unusual task, for civil servants, of monitoring Rolls-Royce than the industrial specialists recruited by the NEB to do the same task?
Lastly, I come to what is perhaps the most difficult question. In considering industrial reconstruction, are the Government wishing entirely and completely to repudiate sections 7 and 8 of the Industry Act 1972? If that is not their wish—as I believe to be the case—is it not fair to say that the Government accept that at times there is aid and investment which should be made available to industry and to commerce of a sort that the market, the joint stock banks or the merchant banks consider to be, in banking terms, unbankable—aid that they would be unwilling to advance because of the extreme risk and the lack of security?
I accept that these may be and should be exceptional cases. Obviously, we do not wish to use this investment as a means of increasing the public sector. The Opposition would disagree on that, but that is one of our areas of disagreement. It may be that only an initial injection of aid or loans should be allowed in order to make certain that we do not get into an open-ended commitment of a Leyland proportion. But, even with these limitations, do the Government believe that all supervision of public sector or nationalised industry is best carried out by and only by the Civil Service, or by the Civil Service advising the Minister?
I am not usually associated with the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), but the House may recall that in the very detailed considerations of the Select Committee on nationalised industries several years ago he was to be found advocating a separate Minister for nationalised industries, with a specialist Department, recruited mainly from industry, which should have the task of the supervision of these industries.
I do not go as far as that, but from my experience I should like to make two specific declarations. The first is that supervision, when it means management control of nationalised industries by civil servants, and then ministerial responsibility, should be discouraged and stamped on whenever possible. Where there is a


statutory authority through the Minister to this House, it is nearly always impossible—this is so whether with Conservative Governments or Socialist Governments—for the sticky fingers of Ministers and civil servants not to interfere in the managerial construction and decision-making of those industries reporting to that Minister.
I therefore wish to advocate that whenever supervision is necessary this should, if possible, be done by an independent industrially experienced and industrially oriented committee authorised to report direct to Ministers. I believe that such a solution could well obtain the backing of both sides of the House, and in so doing it might well find the management of nationalised industries having a sympathetic and understanding industrial ear for their own problems and equally experienced advice which could, when discipline was necessary—there is no doubt that it is necessary at times—apply guidance and advice coming from the voices of men who had themselves been in similar positions to the managers of the nationalised industries.
When the Minister reflects on this one proposition, will he see whether it could be developed? If it could be developed, it might well maximise the working and the benefits of public enterprises and nationalised industries, and, again, it might even mean that debates such as this debate tonight would be superfluous.

Mr. Phillip Whitehead: That was quite an outstanding speech in its thought and its clarity of expression. I say only one thing to the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery): why sketch in the blueprint when one can fly in the production model? What the hon. Member was describing was the National Enterprise Board. What he was describing was the NEB performing the functions which we set out for it during the previous Administration.
I want to take only a few minutes' time and to confine my remarks to Rolls-Royce and its position under the new dispensation, as the hon. Member has just described it. But I would say at the outset that I have the gravest regret about the resignation of the NEB and the way in which it has come about. I think it has weakened the NEB, and it has not strengthened Rolls-Royce. I think that I should say exactly why.
I think that it has weakened the NEB because the board, which has had its problems, and inevitably so—both with some of the companies that it has administered and with Governments of both major parties and civil servants working for those Governments—nevertheless had built up a body of expertise and a degree of trust which will now be severely threatened, both by the haemorrhage of talent consequent upon the resignations and by the attitude of hostility that there will now be on the part of the trade union movement.
However I look at the new membership of the NEB, I do not see it as being the equal of the old. An unnamed Minister was quoted in the press last week as saying that it was not exactly a galaxy of talent. There are talented people on the new board, but it clearly has major omissions. Perhaps it has some commissions which may raise the odd eyebrow. I raise an eyebrow at the presence on it of a representative of GEC. I shall say why. A number of the companies which the NEB is administering are directly competitive with GEC and some of GEC's enterprises. When the Minister of State replies to the debate, I should like him to see whether he can reassure me, and other hon. Members who feel this, that there is not a serious problem of a conflict of interests on this point.
I turn now to the question of Rolls-Royce. The Secretary of State has praised the revival of Rolls-Royce under Sir Kenneth Keith. Of course, we have to say in reply to that that a good part of that revival has taken place under the auspices of the NEB. Sir Kenneth has never made any secret, in private conversation with me as a constituency Member of Parliament in Derby, or with any other hon. Member on either side of the House, of his deep dislike for the NEB. We take that as read. He has described it as a bureaucratic contraceptive—a contraceptive which stops him having as many babies as he wants to have. He has a great many babies on the go at present.
The slight problem here is that any body which is regulatory, which is attempting to hold to account in an informed way bodies spending the sums of public money involved in an enterprise such as Rolls-Royce, is bound to have a


contraceptive effect in that sense. The Public Accounts Committee is a contraceptive. The Comptroller and Auditor General is a contraceptive—and quite rightly so. The problem for the House tonight is to consider the style and leadership of Rolls-Royce as it has been set out under Sir Kenneth Keith and as it no doubt is now intended to continue under his hand-picked successor—because he has again made no secret of the fact that he wanted Sir Frank McFadzean to succeed him. I question how widely the Secretary of State trawled elsewhere in his attempts to find a new chairman for Rolls-Royce. How far can Rolls-Royce under this management be allowed to go its own way, and how far, indeed, will it be effectively audited by the civil servants of the Department of Industry? Those are the two questions.
I would be the first, living in and conscious of the heart-beat of Rolls-Royce all the time, to acknowledge the great successes that there have been. But the strategy involved is in many ways a dangerous one. I do not say that to discount it or to disparage it. I simply say that the American strategy, which is effective in what Sir Kenneth Keith has embarked upon with Rolls-Royce, is extremely risky. In that high-risk game, we are reminded, wherever Rolls-Royce employees live, of the last episode of very high-risk strategy in the American market and the bankruptcy of 1971 and the agonies to which that led.
The high-risk strategy—the Boeing deal, the decision now to go ahead with the construction of plant in Miami and Atlanta, Georgia, the decision to announce a quite unprecedented guarantee for the construction of the Boeing 757 aircraft—necessarily raises questions of audit of a very serious nature, particularly when there are those within Rolls-Royce, as well as outside, who would ask some questions about the company's decisions over the last three or four years. Did Rolls-Royce really gets its calculations vis-a-vis the exchange rate right? Was it wise to make so many deals in dollar terms with an exchange rate of $1·85? Looking ahead, when Rolls-Royce makes its assessments and says that it wants £200 million from the taxpayer and an equivalent amount from the market, has it taken suf-

ficiently into account both the exchange rates that will prevail over the next two or three years and the level of market demand?
One of the areas in which Rolls-Royce was caught very badly short two years ago was in underestimating the speed of the upturn in the aviation market. The aviation market is a funny thing. It tends to be going up precisely when other things are going down because of the very great lags involved. So there is no particular paradox now in seeing the order books for civil aviation in a more healthy state than they have been for many years just as Western Europe and the United States are on the brink of a major recession.
When I look at the clash between the NEB, the apparent arguments over the NEB's calculation that Rolls-Royce was in the market for funding to the degree of £700 million over the next two or three years and the Rolls-Royce counter-argument that it only wanted a couple of hundred million from the taxpayer in that same period, I think that we might well end up splitting the difference. We might well find that both arguments are wrong and that the watchdog body was right to challenge the slightly bland estimates that are emerging from the company.
I say that as someone who wishes the company well, and the House will realise why with my constituency interest. We are now in a position where for a variety of reasons, some of which were touched on by the Secretary of State, Rolls-Royce suffers from both low productivity and difficulty in getting its production right, as well as anything like a proper return on its equity. The figures will not look too good for this year. There are a variety of reasons for that.
What we in Derby fear, and what those who follow the affairs of Rolls-Royce fear, is that we may now be in a position where the company is involved in very great risks indeed over the next two or three years—because of necessity, it is a high-risk strategy—when the audit may be weaker than we would desire.
The hon. Member for Honiton put his finger on it, and so, in briefer and more brutal words, did Sir Leslie Murphy in


his statement of resignation or dismissal, however one describes it, when he said:
I have no confidence that Ministers advised by civil servants who have no business experience are competent to discharge the task previously carried out by the NEB.
That is the crucial issue. We must remember what caused the bankruptcy of Rolls-Royce in 1971. On the one hand, it was engineering and managerial hubris of a very high degree and, on the other, a bad audit by civil servants under Governments of both parties—of our party as well as under the Government of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). When I think of the high-risk strategy then, the brilliant and dynamic people who pursued it, and the relevant failure of the Department of Trade and Industry adequately to monitor the last 18 months of the progress of Rolls-Royce before the crash, I now go cold at the thought that we may be moving into that position again.
It may be said by hon. Members that there is now one big difference—that Rolls-Royce is now a publicly owned company, which was not the case in 1971. It may be argued that there is this direct input, to which the hon. Member for Honiton referred. As he said, quoting the Rolls-Royce press statement today, Rolls-Royce appears to regard it as true for the foreseeable future that there will always be a very tight relationship between the Government of the day and the company when
all major policy decisions have always been taken by the Government which have never ceased to monitor the company's performance closely through both the Department of Industry and the Ministry of Defence.
The monitoring will go on. The question mark that we have raised concerns the capacity of those who will be carrying out the monitoring and the audit, unless a skilled team is recruited to do it.
I come to my final worry, which is that even this condition, in the insouciant words of the Secretary of State, appears to be blown away, because in reply to me the other day the Secretary of State said—I think he said it in the debate today—that he expects the company to be returned to private ownership. In other words, he expects it to be flogged off.
There was a report in the Financial Times the other day about the interests of

GEC. Referring to Sir Arnold Weinstock, it said:
Sir Arnold confirmed yesterday that GEC had been involved in talks about Rolls-Royce for some years but no conclusion has been reached. The talks have covered ideas such as a full merger, GEC taking over Rolls-Royce's industrial gas turbine work … and GEC helping to strengthen the aero-engine manufacturers' management.
GEC is a successful company. But one can load too much on even a very successful company, particularly in view of the investment risks involved here. Looking back at the sad history of British Leyland, I believe that we loaded too much on the successful parts of that, as merger followed merger, in the hope that good would drive out the bad. Of course, the reverse was the case.
Is it seriously the intention that Rolls-Royce should be sold off back to the private sector? Is that is the intention, it makes nonsense even of the assurance that we had about the auditing of Rolls-Royce that is promised. Indeed, it makes nonsense of the suggestions for tightening control through the Department of Industry. Of course, I hold a different view from Conservative Members about the advisability of a massive increase in the private sector as against an increase in the public sector. I am a mixed economy man, and my criterion for public ownership is not doctrinaire at all. It is whether or not the degree of input of public investment requires direct public accountability. We shall lose that if we take Rolls-Royce out of the public sector and flog it off to Arnold Weinstock or anyone else.
Those are the questions I have to ask today. In the absence of the Secretary of State, I would say that there is one remarkable thing about him which I greatly admire. He has the courage to admit his mistakes afterwards and is not one to create a desert and call it peace. The time comes when the right hon. Gentleman calls it a desert, as witness the National Health Service. However, I hope the Secretary of State will have the courage to come back—if not today, at some future time—and say that it was a fundamentally mistaken decision that so hamstrung the NEB. I believe that that decision will, in the long term, weaken Rolls-Royce.

Mr. Michael Grylls: The House will no doubt pay great attention to what the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) has said. Derby is the home town of Rolls-Royce, and any drama over a large company dominating a town must be immensely worrying for those who work in it and for the hon. Gentleman's constituents generally.
I begin by referring to the terms of the motion where it says that the resignation of the entire NEB board has done damage to Britain's reconstruction. The House will accept, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, that the two are totally unconnected. Whatever view one might or might not have about the NEB, to pretend that it had any connection whatever with the reconstruction of the British industrial scene is absolute nonsense. As my right hon. Friend said, if there are difficulties in British industry today it is because of the anti-enterprise climate that has been with us for too long.
The resignation of the NEB board was a rather curiously petulant act of little significance in the long term. If we look briefly at the financial achievements of the NEB since it came into office in 1975, we see that it has been very poor indeed. If, for example, we consider that of the taxpayers' money put into the NEB, £1·4 billion, a profit of £30·7 million was made last year, and that after extraordinary items there was a loss of £40·3 million, we realise that that is not a good return on capital. It is not a handsome return on £1·4 billion of taxpayers' money.
If we take out Rolls-Royce and British Leyland, which is something that the NEB liked to do when considering its figures, and consider only the investments that the NEB has made on what it likes to call its "entrepreneurial judgment", we see that on a capital of £300 million the board last year made a loss of £5·27 million, so the record of the NEB has not been good. For that reason I do not shed any crocodile tears for the members of the board tonight. I fully accept, of course, that, as honourable men, they did the job to the best of their ability. The strange thing is that the NEB clearly thinks—presumably, that is why the board has resigned

—that the removal of Rolls-Royce from under its wing has done damage to it.
Since they were transferred to the NEB in February 1976, the Board has complained about Rolls-Royce and British Leyland and said that these two large lame ducks were landed on its plate and it therefore was not fair to judge the return on those companies in relation to the general return on capital within the NEB. The Board has complained that it has been landed with these two companies and never wanted them. Therefore, I should have thought that if Rolls-Royce were taken out the NEB could say "That is better. We can now be judged on our own entrepreneurial skills "—so-called—"and the companies in which we have invested."
The nub of this debate is about how good the NEB was at monitoring Rolls-Royce. The NEB and, as the hon. Member for Derby, North said, Rolls-Royce have failed to get to grips with the financial problems of exchange control and currency fluctuations. The NEB seems to have slipped up on all of these matters, and that illustrated a lack of financial discipline within the Rolls-Royce company that the NEB did nothing about.
There are arguments that have been well rehearsed here and in other places about the duplication and confusion of having two boards of directors—which is really what it came to—to run one company. My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) has great experience of industry, but I disagree with him about the duplication of these boards. Having an NEB board as well as a Rolls-Royce board has made it difficult to run those companies efficiently.
My hon. Friend quoted from the Rolls-Royce circular, but he did not quote the last sentence, which says:
This effort has always far exceeded that of the NEB in both time and technical competence.
In effect, Rolls-Royce is saying that the Department's monitoring, which was going on in parallel with that of the NEB, was superior in technical competence. We should pay great attention to that, because that was the view of Rolls-Royce over the four-year period that it was under the wing of the NEB.
Hon. Members will remember the report that the NEB made to the House in January about Rolls-Royce. The


report claimed, quite rightly, great successes for Rolls-Royce in the £2,000 million worth of sales achieved for the RB211 engine. I read that report very carefully, and there appeared to be no reference whatever to whether the company would make a profit out of the order. It is a wonderful thing to have an order, but it is rather more sensible to make a profit out of it. Therefore, I deduced from that that the controls by the NEB were not particularly effective. That being so, why not remove them? Why have this extra layer of control?

Mr. Leadbitter: I have not understood the hon. Member's argument. I thought that the argument was about friction. The hon. Member should bear in mind that we wanted a serious debate on this matter, without impugning the character, integrity, financial expertise and accountability of the NEB, which has been excellent ever since it was formed. Perhaps the hon. Member will desist, because we are not here to discuss the matters that he is discussing.

Mr. Grylls: The hon. Member must allow me to make my speech as I wish, within the rules of order. This debate is about technical competence in monitoring. Personalities come and go. We all pass from the scene in due course, therefore personalities are least important. The important thing is how these bodies do their monitoring. The fact is that Rolls-Royce, which has had the experience, came to the conclusion that the monitoring from the Department of Industry was actually better than that of the NEB. I should prefer the better monitoring system to the second-class one, and, in any event, I do not like the idea of haying two layers of monitoring and two boards of directors. That only leads to confusion. Therefore, I believe that my right hon. Friend has done the right thing and taken a bold and courageous decision which will be in the long-term interests of Rolls-Royce. Time alone will tell.
I warn the House that logic dictates that my right hon. Friend should now do the same thing over British Leyland. At this moment that company trembles on the precipice with its latest strike. This most expensive lame duck with £1,000 million of taxpayers' money committed to it should have the same logic applied to it as was applied to Rolls-Royce. The unnecessary bureaucratic layer of the

NEB should be removed. The position of British Leyland is so important that decisions are bound to be taken by my right hon. Friend, so why have another layer in between?
Having sat through the last Parliament, when most of this money was spent on British Leyland, I must point out that Parliament was never told the truth about the company. The British Leyland saga, and its monitoring by this Parliament, has been a disgraceful farce, because we have not been told the truth. There has been no projection of profits in six months. United States companies have quarterly forecasts and quarterly balance sheets of what they have achieved and what will happen in future. Why not British Leyland? There has never been one such report.
In 1978 the pre-tax profits of British Leyland were £15·3 million—a derisory figure when the investment put into that company is taken into account. Yet, after that result was announced, the NEB approved a further several hundred millions of pounds of taxpayers' money to go into British Leyland. Why was that done when the result was so bad? We do not know what contribution has been made to the investment programme of British Leyland from internally generated profit. In a debate last April my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked about the expected contribution of £200 million from BL between 1978 and 1981 from its own internally generated profits which would match the investment of taxpayers' money. We can only assume that none of that has arisen and that BL has not made sufficient—or any—profit to contribute towards its investment programme. I admit that I am talking in the dark. Should we not be told? Would it not be better to take BL out of the NEB? My right hon. Friend will always be responsible, whether the NEB exists or not. Why do not we face the realities?
In its last report on BL the NEB talked about an 18·5 per cent, increase in productivity. That was the basis upon which the House of Commons was asked for more money. In the event BL achieved a decrease in productivity of minus 3 per cent., yet the company was still given the money. That is the sort of monitoring carried out by the NEB. It is totally ineffective and it duplicates the monitoring that is carried out by my right hon.


Friend and the civil servants in the Department of Industry, which is always carried out with a company with that size of investment.
Those of us who have read the NEB reports on BL over the last three or four years know that in every report there have been false dawns, none of which has occurred but all of which have been supported by the NEB. Perhaps that was inevitable—the Edwardes plan was its creation. Michael Edwardes was the board's nominee. Mr. Edwardes' director of strategy was the recent head of the NEB BL evaluation unit. Connections were too close to ensure detached assessment. I believe that that is as true today of BL's connections with the NEB and the House as it has been from the beginning.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will listen carefully to the evidence about removing BL from the extra layer of control. It would help BL at this time to remove further conflict and confusion. In the past the NEB has acted as an advocate rather than an assessor, and an advocate rather than a monitor. That is not what is required. As my right hon. Friend knows, in the case of Rolls-Royce he is the shareholder. He carries out monitoring because he is a large shareholder. However, he will not run the company and he will not run BL, nor will he want to. The House of Commons in its traditional role of controlling public expenditure will appreciate that the control should be direct.
I do not believe that the old NEB will be greatly lamented or missed. I hope that the new board under Sir Arthur Knight will take a more detached and critical view of the company and its portfolio. That is the board's duty, and I believe that my right hon. Friend has instructed it to do just that. I hope that the NEB will take a critical view of its activities and, as soon as possible, bring the companies in its portfolio to a state where they can be returned to the market. They will be totally removed from the public sector and from meddling by the House of Commons or the NEB. I believe that to be my right hon. Friend's aim, and I support him totally in that aim.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. Before calling the next speaker, I should tell the House that I understand that it will be convenient for the winding-up speeches to begin at 9.20 pm. Short speeches will enable me to call more of the hon. Members who wish to speak in this important debate.

Mr. Ken Eastham: I support the motion condemning the Government. The recent resignations are obviously signs that all is not well and that relationships are not good. It is doubtful whether we shall ever know the full facts of the meetings and negotiations that resulted in not just one or two board members but the whole board deciding to resign.
Recent events have caused great unease and a loss of confidence. I doubt whether things will be any better now that the Secretary of State has set up the new board. There is no trade union representative on the new board to support the venture or even to identify with the rather doubtful structure of a board that will apparently meekly accept all the diktats of the Secretary of State and the Government.
I found great support for the NEB during the general election campaign and I do not recall any criticisms or suggestions for major changes. Those in the North-West recognise that 30,000 jobs in the North and North-West are being assisted by the NEB. That means that not only 30,000 workers but 30,000 families are being assisted. That is of great importance.
Companies have tottered in the past not because of a lack of skill among the workers of the industries but aften because of incompetent managements. Rolls-Royce is a classic example. What happened to that company was not a reflection on the skills of the workers, but they were, nevertheless, nut at great risk because of the lack of judgment in that company.
Conservative Members want to reverse the trend and to go back to the sort of managements that ran these companies when they failed. The Labour Government had to step in to help and to make those companies successful. I do not know how Conservative Members can justify returning those companies to the


private sector when one takes into account the amount of taxpayers' money that has been used to bring about revivals and to restore confidence in a number of industries.
The Secretary of State says that the like to know what sort of role the right hon. Gentleman envisages for the board. I am suspicious about his attitude to the future role of the NEB. The confidence of workers in the various firms being assisted by the board will not be improved if they believe that their futures could be at risk and that their firms may collapse, with all the job losses that could result.
The debate so far has concentrated on British Leyland and Rolls-Royce. What about the other companies, such as Ferranti in my constituency, that have been assisted? The National Enterprise Board loaned Ferranti £6·3 million. Once again, with much trade union co-operation, that company became successful. Conservative Members refer to the lack of profits made, but in 1978 that company made a profit of £9·12 million. By 1978 sales had doubled in a new and exciting technology. However, these same workers are once again afraid that they will see the new technology that they have encouraged and promoted taken away and stolen by other private companies. That would be a travesty of justice.
In Manchester, Fairey Engineering, which went into liquidation in 1977, was aided by the NEB and consequently 1,700 jobs were saved. The NEB was born from the failures of private companies.
If I were a Conservative Member, I should be embarrassed to stand here this evening and defend the about-face of the NEB. I should be particularly embarrassed in view of the extent to which the Conservatives have failed in the past. They created this disaster quite unnecessarily. British engineers do not deserve such treatment. Sometimes it is understandable that workers rebel. It is understandable that they should express their anger because they find that they are paying the price, although they have done nothing wrong.
What is so magical about private companies that have so often failed and collapsed with the complete loss of an industry to the cities, the towns and even the nation? Those firms were not backed

by banks and had to go to the NEB for finance. What has the Minister done for those industries? From the day that the Government came to power it has been clear that if we are not careful the innocents in industry will pay the price, with their jobs, because of the political dogma and spite exercised by the Government.

Mr. William Clark: No.

Mr. Eastham: The hon. Gentleman says "No", but I have no confidence in the Government. If one goes into the North-West of England and speaks to industrial personnel there, one finds that they agree with me rather than with the hon. Gentleman.
The greatest damage that has been done has been the loss of good industrial relations. If confidence is to be engendered it is essential to have good industrial relations. However, we do not see any confidence. We have already received representations from men in the factories who are giving not just their time but their lifeblood and skills. Other people are giving only money, but these people are giving their all. One might think that those who work in an industry have more at risk than those who give only their money and are playing—tinkering about. The Opposition are correct to condemn the Government. I believe that industry will endorse the Labour Party's attitude.

9 pm.

Mr. John Lee: I welcome the opportunity of speaking in the debate because I believe in the role of the National Enterprise Board. I regret that some of my hon. Friends signed an early-day motion at the tail end of last week, in effect, welcoming the resignation of the board.
I am pleased that the Government intend to retain the NEB. It would have been a near-disaster to have abolished it, just as when we abolished the IRC in the early 1970s. I support the limited role that we now have for the NEB.
I am sorry that the debate and the whole approach to the NEB have been clouded by the affairs of Rolls-Royce and the resignation of the board. I believe that the NEB is, or should be, larger than both of those matters. However, I share


the sentiments expressed about Rolls-Royce by the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead). As he knows, many of my constituents are in the Rolls-Royce work force at Barnoldswick, and they are concerned about the future of the company.
Unfortunately, too many Labour Members take an ideological stand on the NEB and see it as a further thrust of Socialism. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) is not in the Chamber, because I am about to quote what he said on a recent visit to Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman said that had Labour been in office it would have been pouring money into the depressed areas through the NEB and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. Apart from the fact that we do not have the money to pour in, those sentiments are incompatible with what Sir Leslie Murphy, the former chairman, said in the NEB's 1978 report:
The NEB is not a source of subsidised finance. Its involvement is limited to those cases which show a real prospect of commercial returns and it is right that that should be so.
I believe that the NEB has a practical role to play. The experience of the business men and trade unionists who were on the board, and of those who are now on the newly constituted board, enables them to take better decisions, on balance, than many of the civil servants.
I must declare an indirect interest in the workings of the NEB. I was instrumental in introducing a mining machinery manufacturing company—Pitchcraft in Barnsley—to the NEB. I am happy to say that the NEB invested money in that company and made a profit out of a subsequent sale to Booker Brothers McConnel. That introduction was made on an entirely altruistic basis. There was no personal involvement.
Some of my hon. Friends have rightly drawn attention to some of the investment mistakes made by the NEB. Of course it has made mistakes. So have many companies, investors and merchant banks in the private sector. Venture capital is not easy to decide. It is wrong to denigrate the NEB because of certain mistakes that it has made.
The NEB has now gained the confidence of a substantial proportion of in-

dustry. It has been working closely with some of the joint stock banks and with particular elements of the financial institutions. Some of the pension funds were jointly involved in NEB investments. On balance, the majority of the business community and of informed journalistic opinion supported the continuation of the NEB.
The Government, in their first Budget in June, marked out what I term the tennis court. Unfortunately, a combination of the world recession and rising interest rates has effectively nullified much of the Budget. I do not believe that many hon. Members on either side of the House or many people in the country realise the seriousness of the economic situation that will face us in the early 1980s or the number of casualties that will arise from the heavy blizzard that is to come. As the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Eastham) said, it is certain that in the early 1980s we shall have the new Ferrantis and the new ICLs which will need the intensive care of the NEB or a similar body before they are returned to the private sector. This is probably where the two of us disagree in ideological terms.
I believe that the NEB has done a lot, especially in the regions. However, earlier this morning I was speaking to the North-West director of the NEB. He is extremely concerned about the events of the last few days which have caused the flow of new propositions to dry up. It is vital, therefore, that the first task of the newly constituted NEB is to restore morale. As I said in my opening remarks, the NEB is larger than Rolls-Royce or any other existing board.
I believe passionately in private enterprise. But I also believe that there is a time when the State has a role to play. Our economic problems are far too serious for party political point scoring.

Mr. Dick Douglas: I shall try to make my remarks fairly brief, because many of the very intelligent arguments of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Lee) are among the matters to which I intended to refer.
I want, first, to comment on the position in my own constituency and to ask the Minister to say how a company such


as Monotype Holdings, which has a substantial interest in the Dunfermline constituency, is likely to fare in terms of continued support through the National Enterprise Board.
As the hon. Member for Nelson and Come pointed out, in this debate we are talking about more than Rolls-Royce and British Leyland, and I want to ask the Minister where he disagrees with the statement made by one of the NEB's principals which appeared in the 1978 report. It reads:
The NEB cannot and does not seek to involve itself in the day-to-day management of companies. It would be to duplicate the management skills which are to be found in the companies. In effect the NEB delegates to the boards and managements of subsidiaries the responsibility for running the companies efficiently within a broad strategy approved by the NEB to achieve agreed objectives.
Where is the difference, if any, between the strategy which will be imposed on a company such as Rolls-Royce in its direct relationships with the Minister's Department and that type of statement made by the NEB itself?
We are discussing a philosophy in relation to a mixed economy, not a mixed-up economy. We are trying to analyse the boundaries of public intervention and public accountability, at the same time allowing the flexibility of day-to-day management decisions to take its course. This is a very difficult area. It is one on which we have tried throughout the last 17 years and more to get some guidelines, and it is only now with organisations such as the NEB that we have a remote chance of achieving some success.
If we bring these accountability decisions into the orbit of a Department of State, we shall be bringing these decisions into areas of activity and concern which lack flexibility and decentralisation. I am not maligning civil servants; they are very good at defending their Ministers. But, by their very nature and the fact that they have to defend Ministers and often aid the defence of Ministers here in drafting answers to parliamentary questions and hon. Members' letters, they have a centralising element. That is disadvantageous to the operations of industrial concerns.
It is difficult for an organisation such as the House—I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee and so I am especi-

ally aware of the difficulties—to achieve a balance between public accountability and allowing an organisation to take risks. It is a good industrialist who takes risks and is right about 80 per cent, of the time. That industrialist is magnificent it he is right about 90 per cent, of the time He is marginally good if 50 per cent, of his decisions are correct. What guarantee is there to the House and to the country that the interrelationship between the Department of Industry and organisations such as Rolls-Royce will get even 50 per cent, of the decisions correct?
I know Sir Frank McFadzean well and I admire him. However, I think that the wrong decision has been made. With great respect to the previous chairman of the NEB, Sir Frank should have been made chairman of that organisation. It would have been much more sensible to put him in charge of the NEB instead of placing him in charge of Rolls-Royce.
Sir Frank was formerly chairman of Shell Transport and Trading. He was in charge of the operations of a loosely organised concern. The peripheral concerns, the independent national companies of Shell, are allowed to take intricate investment decisions in an almost arm's length relationship. That is the type of philosophy that should be applied to the operations of the NEB. I press the Government to take cognisance of the organisational and personnel problems in bringing such organisations in direct contact with the Civil Service.

Mr. Robert Taylor: In common with the hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Douglas), I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee. I remind the House of an answer that was given to a question on 8 May 1978. The question was put to Sir Leslie Murphy by my right hon Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). Sir Leslie said:
I have never knowingly gambled on anything. I have never placed a bet in my life, so perhaps I can go on the record for that.
However, there is a first time for everything. There is no doubt that earlier this month Sir Leslie gambled. He gambled that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would not wish to face the political consequences of the mass resignation of the board of the NEB. As my right hon. Friend has already said, he was


faced with the alternative of the resignation of the board of Rolls-Royce or the resignation of the board of the NEB. In my view, my right hon. Friend made the right choice.
If Sir Leslie lost his first bet, it is apparent that he does not appear to realise it. In the Financial Times on Saturday, Sir Leslie was quoted as saying:
I believe the Board will have a future and if I have to be sacrificed in order to achieve that, I am willing to be sacrificed.
Those are splendid words, patriotic words that are worthy of the highest praise from Parliament. The only snag is that the talk of sacrifice is misguided and totally out of place. No one has been sacrificed. Sir Leslie held a pistol to his own head and to his surprise it was loaded.
Concern has already been expressed that other members of the board have suffered a similar fate. Tribute has been rightly paid to them. They are important, successful and interesting people. However, as a Member of this place I do not know exactly what they have contributed to the success or failure of the board. I do not know how frequently the board meets. I do not know whether any of the non-executive directors have visited the board's investments before decisions are taken. Which of the members of the old board are prepared to take responsibility for only one year ago investing £4½ million of British taxpayers' money in British Tanners? That was a bad mistake. The decision was taken against all the advice of industry as a whole.
The resignation of the old board is to be welcomed because I believe that the new board will have a fresh approach. It will not be prepared to invest taxpayers' money in enterprises that have no chance of success to allow them to compete on an unfair basis with companies in the private sector that themselves are successful.

Mr. Ted Leadbitter: The amendment to the Leader of the Opposition's motion contains words of which the House and those outside might take some positive notice. Those words state that the Government
expresses its appreciation of the services of the members of the National Enterprise Board who have recently resigned

and
welcomes the appointment of a strong new board to carry forward the work of the National Enterprise Board …
I do not know whether it is a very strong board. It seems to me to be only half a board at the moment. There is nothing strong about it. By the use of the word "strong" in relation to the new board, the amendment suggests that the previous board was not strong.

Sir Keith Joseph: indicated dissent.

Mr. Leadbitter: The Secretary of State nods his head. He is always in a permanent state of nodding. I do not know whether it is a nervous reflex. We on this side of the House know that he has been against the board ever since it was established. The only person oscillating in the House is the Secretary of State.
I can recall a debate in the House last year on the NEB when its record was questioned only by the right hon. Gentleman. Then came May. The right hon. Gentleman was faced with the realities of life. He is not seeking to take up a posture of opposing the board and wanting to banish it. He now seeks to modify the board. No one knows what he means. He does not even know himself. I understand that he told the House tonight that the board has a useful role to play. That is belated thinking by the great philosopher. It is a great admission.
The hon. Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) made an unthinking speech, lacking in courtesy and attention to the integrity and efficiency of the members of the National Enterprise Board who have now resigned. The hon. Gentleman described the board members as acting petulantly. I have had recent experience of the National Enterprise Board. I was surprised at the care, attention, consideration and thoughtfulness of the board and particularly Sir Leslie Murphy and his deputy. According to the Secretary of State, the sheet has been cleaned. His friends have been put on the board. We know that—never mind that little luncheon the right hon. Gentleman had with the chairman of Rolls-Royce about which nothing was said. I could not have had a luncheon in such circumstances without mentioning the matter.
The regions have benefited from the co-operation that hon. Members have


enjoyed with members of the board. My right hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) has already mentioned this matter. Now that the principle of "I'm in charge" has been invoked by the Secretary of State and his friends placed on the board, answerable to the right hon. Gentleman and his civil servants, does he believe that hon. Members will receive the same accommodation from the new board as we received from the old board? I suspect that if I asked pertinent questions of the new chairman he would find it necessary to avoid answering me until he had spoken to the Secretary of State seeking advice on the answer he should give.
A lot of nonsense has been talked in the House tonight. Conservative Members have sought to commend the members of the old board but without really meaning what they have said. I refer in particular to the hon. Member for Surrey, North-West, who spent his time dealing with technical monitoring. But the NEB function was not one of technical monitoring. Its function was to monitor financially, and no one in this House can criticise the efficacy of the NEB on that score.
Many of the contributions from the Conservative Benches have been disappointing because of the dogmatic and prejudiced nature of their approach. From the Opposition side of the House have come serious and sincere expressions to the members of the board who were forced on grounds of principle and integrity, and in defence of their efficiency, to resign. That is what the Secretary of State must bear in mind.

Dr. John Cunningham: The motion moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin) condemns the action of the Government with respect to the NEB and Rolls-Royce and, by implication, the stewardship of the Secretary of State for Industry.
It is interesting to reflect that throughout what has admittedly been a very short debate only one Conservative Member welcomed the events of last week, and only one other speaker in the whole debate has supported the Secretary of State

The right hon. Gentleman cannot feel very sanguine about that. In the short debate there has been a marked lack of enthusiasm on the Conservative Benches for the actions that the right hon. Gentleman has been pursuing in respect of the NEB.
The right hon. Gentleman's role in this matter has been one of confusion and of changes of mind—the latter on his own admission. He did not come to office with the intention of taking Rolls-Royce away from the NEB. He changed his mind on that. He has changed his mind on the manifesto commitment of the Conservative Party, which was to abolish the NEB. He tended to vacillate in the Second Reading debate on the Industry Bill as to what his real intentions were for the NEB. His actions with respect to the Board and Rolls-Royce seem, to say the least, to lack definition.
The right hon. Gentleman is not carrying too much conviction, particularly as one who says that he does not believe in ministerial and governmental interference in the first place, when he says that he believes that the Department of Industry is best placed to deal with Rolls-Royce, particularly in its present circumstances. He appears, then, to have had several changes of mind in a few short months in office.
The result of his uncertainty is an air of total uncertainty in his party. The Right wing of his party is not particularly happy about the circumstances which prevail. The right hon. Gentleman's uncertainty has certainly created an air of uncertainty within the TUC. I thought that the Secretary of State—strangely, for him—was a little less than candid with my right hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) in that regard. He referred to his letter to the TUC about the matter. I have a copy of it here. The right hon. Gentleman said that it did not contain any invitation to the TUC. However, it says in the penultimate paragraph:
I have left vacancies on the board which I hope can be filled by trade unionists at a later date.
If that is not an invitation, I should like to know what is. It is very strange that the Secretary of State should not have been properly and fully forthcoming on that point.
The right hon. Gentleman must greatly regret the circumstances that he has created In regard to the TUC. He must also regret the uncertainty that he caused to British Leyland, Fairey, Ferranti, Inmos and the titanium project. All those are affected by the air of uncertainty that now surrounds him and his attitude to the NEB. Indeed, more than 60 companies in all are affected and a great many people's jobs are at stake.
The Secretary of State introduced a Bill to restrict the purposes and functions of the NEB. There was no real argument in favour of the Bill on Second Reading. There was an assertion of the right hon. Gentleman's doctrinaire attitudes, certainly, but there was no real argument based on economic or industrial grounds to support what he was doing. There was no mention of the fact that at the same time he was taking powers away from the NEB in respect of other countries, among our partners and competitors in France, Germany, Italy, Australia, and Canada. Those are hardly Left-wing Administrations.
The Bill also reduces the proposed finances of the NEB and limits its action on investment. Indeed, it gives more power to the Secretary of State himself. That aspect of the Bill is also very strange, seen against the long-standing background of the right hon. Gentleman saying that he does not believe in a role for the Government in the direct management of industry. We all acknowledge that there was a long-standing difference of opinion between the National Enterprise Board and Rolls-Royce. Against that background the arch-priest of nonintervention became directly involved himself. Why did he do that? In his statement on 21 November he said that
Rolls-Royce is a company of a scale and importance such that the supervision of its board by another board, however eminent and accomplished, is bound to give rise to strain.
Moreover it is a company with which, inescapably, Government have exceptionally close connections and where important decisions lie directly with Government.
Later on, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead)—who made a most incisive and perceptive speech about this issue this evening—the right hon. Gentleman said:
I am sure that the House would be surprised if I did not hope that Rolls-Royce

would finish up firmly and profitably in the private sector."—[Official Report, 21 November 1979; Vol. 974, cc. 388–94.]
If that is so, what of this special close involvement with the Government? What will become of it then? If it is so much in the national interest for this involvement to be maintained, established, or to be made more effective, what will happen if he sells off Rolls-Royce either in whole or part? He must know that his attitude in this matter affects the management not only of Rolls-Royce but of the other companies that I have already mentioned.
There is a special relationship between the Government and Rolls-Royce. It is very simple. It is public money—public expenditure. I have a question for the Minister of State about that. I hope that he will tell us where the Secretary of State has failed. Is it the Government's intention to bring about a financial restructuring of Rolls-Royce in this new relationship? Will they ensure that Rolls-Royce stays within its budget forecasts? This, after all, goes to the heart of the difference between the NEB and Rolls-Royce.
Contrary to the assertion of the hon. Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls), the NEB was trying to be an effective steward of public expenditure. That is where the real difference of opinion lay. The NEB sought answers, as was its duty. Sir Kenneth Keith refused to reply. The question has got to be "Why?" The treatment of the board by him and the Secretary of State borders on double dealing—less than candid, to say the least.
I understand that when he met the board on 7 November the Secretary of State asked for 24 hours in which to consider its position. In the event he took two weeks. He did not return to the board. He did not give it an answer. He did not debate or discuss the issue with it. At the end of that two weeks he effectively dismissed the members of the board. Those are the facts. The Secretary of State, who prides himself on his intellectual honesty, will have great difficulty in the weeks and months ahead in getting away from the fact that his actions in this matter have been of a very dubious nature. He had considerable difficulty even in remembering how many meetings he had had with Sir Kenneth Keith. I think that that is deplorable. How are we to view what


has happened against that kind of background? One ex-board member—not a trade unionist—said to me "If this is an example of the Government's attitude to public administration, it stinks." I agree with his comments.
The Secretary of State has destroyed the independence and credibility of the NEB. It is no wonder that the board resigned, and it is no wonder that there has been a complete revulsion on the part of the trade union movement. I can tell the Secretary of State what is the response to his letter. The finance and general purposes committee of the TUC met today and decided that because of his actions there was no basis on which its members could serve the new board. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] I agree that this is a matter of considerable regret, particularly as I belong to the school of argument that wants a consensus approach in these matters.
Hon. Gentlemen who said "Shame" should direct their remarks at the Treasury Bench and not at the TUC. The Secretary of State has brought about those circumstances, not anyone in the trade union movement.
What are to be the terms of reference of the new board? The Secretary of State has created a new board of people who appear to be placemen. Certainly, at best they cannot claim independence or credibility, and at worst—as my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North said—there are some serious questions to be asked about them. The new chairman replaces a former colleague who was dismissed in the most disgraceful circumstances. The vice-chairman, Sir John King, is emotionally and ideologically opposed to the whole idea of the National Enterprise Board, as he said in a letter to The Daily Telegraph on 3 May. It is pathetic that a man could then accept the vice-chairmanship of the very organisation that he sought to denigrate so effectively.
It is also a matter of perhaps even greater concern that Mr. Robert Clayton of GEC should be appointed to the new board. He is known to work for a company that has designs not only on Rolls-Royce but on several other companies in the control of the National Enterprise Board. He is known to be chairman of GEC-Fairchild Limited, one of the prin-

cipal competitors of Inmos. May we have an assurance that a man in this position will not be shown confidential documents? If we cannot have that basic assurance about this man's role, we must say categorically that his appointment is against the public interest.
It is also woefully inept and extremely regrettable that appointments of this kind are made at the same time as the Secretary of State asserts that there will be an independent role for the new board. It is not tenable to argue that way, and I do not believe that he expects us to believe that it is so.
There must also be questions about the ever-smooth transition of Sir Frank McFadzean to yet another chairmanship of a public company, and his relationship with Sir Kenneth Keith in this respect is again a matter for serious public concern.
These are issues that go to the root of the differences between the Secretary of State and the ex-members of the NEB. The Secretary of State has created anger, confusion and mistrust. He has destroyed the credibility of the NEB and his own credibility—if he ever had any—in relation to the trade union movement. He appeared not to notice his impact on David Basnett, the chairman of the TUC economic committee. How the Secretary of State can believe that any constructive proposals can be forthcoming from the TUC after his treatment of David Basnett, I fail to understand.
The NEB remains. We are not quite sure why. We are not quite sure on what basis. But it has major responsibilities to the public and responsibilities for a great many jobs. I cannot bring myself to believe that the Secretary of State sought to put himself in this position. Did he really not care about trade union involvement and the contribution of the trade unions? Did he not value it at all? Was he in any doubt about their intentions? I do not believe that for a moment. He knew quite clearly what their intentions were.
What has the Secretary of State achieved by all this? He has got himself into considerable difficulty. He has damaged—perhaps fatally—the credibility of the NEB, as his hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Lee)


pointed out, particularly with small companies and with entrepreneurs. The right hon. Gentleman has certainly not helped his own position in terms of the developing recession and the economic and industrial difficulties that we are likely to face. He has reduced his room for manoeuvre. He has reduced the flexibility of the Government to deal with the mounting problems.
I believe that the right hon. Gentleman, in his dealings with Rolls-Royce, will also regret the absence of an independent and detached point of view in overseeing the very large amounts of public money which are likely to be needed to go on funding that company.
As bankruptcies and unemployment mount, he has the colossal nerve to say that the Government, unlike the previous Labour Government, had come to office to create the right conditions and climate for industrial expansion. He says that when we have MLR at 17 per cent. and overdrafts at 20 per cent.—

Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: They have.

Dr. Cunningham: If the hon. Lady believes that, she lives in cloud-cuckoo-land. Far from improving the climate, the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Government have made it seriously worse. That is the reality of the situation. If the hon. Lady does not believe that, she ought to go back to her abacus.
The former board was protecting the national interest in these matters. It was protecting public expenditure. It was protecting jobs. It was carrying out its difficult duties. I agreed with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne when he said that the NEB cannot possibly have 100 per cent. success in these matters. There have been some failures. That is absolutely right. No one on the Labour Benches would pretend that the NEB would not have failures from time to time, or that on its own it could bring about a complete restructuring of British industry—a view that the Secretary of State wrongly attributed to my right hon. Friend. We do not believe that for one moment. But the NEB was doing an effective job and now it is no longer in a position to do so.
The Secretary of State has reduced his control over these events by the action he has taken. As a result, he may find himself involved in more public expenditure, not less, because of that lack of control. As unemployment rises, and as people pay for the policies of the Secretary of State and the Government with their jobs, the Secretary of State will regret his actions. He will regret his abject misjudgment and mismanagement of a board which has been playing a constructive, effective and even unique role in our industrial policy. We believe that it was a crucial role, too. His hon. Friends and he may smile, but we believe that in the end their jobs will also be forfeit as a result.

The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Adam Butler): This was supposed to be an all-out attack on the Government. It has gone off with all the enthusiasm of a firework left out in the rain since 5 November. We started off with what was, for a three-hour debate, far too long a speech from the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Silkin), a speech that was excessively boring. We ended up with a contribution from the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Dr. Cunningham) which sank to the depths of personal criticism of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, which is totally unworthy of the hon. Gentleman. Also, the hon. Gentleman could not resist a slur on the integrity of Mr. Clayton, who has just been appointed to the NEB.

Dr. John Cunningham: rose—

Mr. Butler: Let me finish. It was very much a slur on the integrity of Mr. Clayton, saying that he was incapable of distinguishing between responsibilities in his position on the NEB. Mr. Clayton is a research engineer of international reputation, and I have no doubt that he will observe the accepted standards in regard to propriety in this matter.

Dr. John Cunningham: The Minister of State is wrong. I made no comment on Mr. Clayton's personal qualities. I commented on the unfortunate fact that he was the chairman of one of the main competitors of Inmos, and in those circumstances I asked how there could exist a situation in which Inmos trusted him.

Mr. Butler: On another occasion the hon. Gentleman might explain to the House why Sir Jack Wellings, who was on the board, was not in the same position of conflict as chairman of the 600 Group, a well-known machine tool group. Why was he not put in the same position vis-a-vis Alfred Herbert? While on the NEB, Sir Jack Wellings was responsible for decisions in regard to Alfred Herbert. The same integrity applied to Sir Jack Wellings as does to Mr. Clayton. It was an unworthy slur by the hon. Member for Whitehaven.
I start, as many other speakers have started, with my own tribute to the late board members. They are men of great competence. I have no doubt that they will continue to serve British industry, in either the public or the private sector, as they have done in the past. Their resignations are to be deeply regretted. I think that it was for them a matter of principle and that they believed that in some way my right hon. Friend's actions reflected on their competence. However mistaken that reaction, one has to respect their views. But I think that some small encouragement is to be gained out of a mass resignation on grounds of honour or principle, because there is no reflection on the individuals concerned; nor, in the circumstances—and bearing in mind how the board was composed—should the unanimous decision have been taken for political reasons. Therefore, we very much hope that the trade unions will think very seriously about filling the seats on the board deliberately left empty by my right hon. Friend.
The right hon. Member for Deptford told us that the board members had resigned because they did not like the decision to take Rolls-Royce away from the NEB and because they had not been consulted. Those are two reasons why, for their own good, they might have decided to resign. We get a slightly different story from the hon. Member for Whitehaven, who seemed to be acting tonight as a sort of messenger boy for the TUC. I sincerely hope that he is wrong.
Under the previous Administration, the TUC asked for the privilege to be put on the board of the NEB. Tribute has been paid today, and previously, to the role that the TUC members played. Trade union leaders are, I think, aware of the

fall from grace that some of them have suffered in the public mind in recent years. I believe that in wisdom they will wish to discourage any impression that their motivations in this matter have been political—as opposed to sharing a common view and act of resignation with the whole board—and that they will prefer to demonstrate that their original seeking after board representation flowed from a wish to look after their members' interests and to serve British industry.
As for the new board, I wish Sir Arthur and his colleagues well. They have an important and continuing job to do, and from what I know of Sir Arthur I am sure that he will fight his corner as hard as anybody.
Some of my hon. Friends and Labour Members asked a number of questions and I shall try to answer them if I can.

Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Will the hon. Gentleman explain precisely what Sir Arthur's corner is, because it seems to me that his corner has gone out of the window? On the basis of the appointment, he has obviously decided to wind down the NEB, which is precisely the opposite of what the Labour Party put into operation.

Mr. Butler: The hon. Gentleman listened to my right hon. Friend describing the future role of the NEB. I shall return to that. That is the corner that Sir Arthur will fight—for the future of the NEB and for the role that it now has. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer some of the rather more important questions that his hon. Friends asked.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Douglas) asked about the future of Monotype Holdings. That is a matter for the NEB, but in no way is it affected by the decision of my right hon. Friend in regard to the future of Rolls-Royce.
My hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls), as usual, made a useful contribution, and referred particularly to the lack of profitability of many of the companies within the NEB's holding. He rightly drew our attention to the fact that that state of affairs cannot continue without an injection of public funds, which has its consequences elsewhere.
I shall return to the invaluable contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery). I shall also deal with several other points.
The crux of the debate has been the question of duplication between the role of the NEB and that of the Department of Industry. My right hon. Friend put considerable emphasis on this. I do not know whether the House is aware of the extent to which that duplication existed. It is true that the NEB said that it would stand back from management decisions, but it required to see plans and budgets, to have full-scale quarterly and periodic reporting and to approve expenditure down to £5 million. That would seem to be sufficient.
When one looks at the role of the Department during this time, one finds that under NEB guidelines the same sort of monitoring—following almost exactly the same subjects, such as forward plans and budgets and major investment decisions, but this time only if above £10 million—had to go before the Department and, in many cases, to Ministers. That has presented difficulties, and no one can say that the monitoring has been entirely successful. One wonders how it is that the budgets for Rolls-Royce for 1978 and 1979 were not available to the Department until April in each respective year. Nobody can say that the system has worked really efficiently.
As has been said in the debate, there have been factors arising out of the position of Rolls-Royce as a supplier to the Ministry of Defence. In that case there is almost continuous monitoring by the Ministry of Defence in respect of orders, overseas supplies and licences of all kinds. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West that that is where the distinction between Rolls-Royce and British Leyland lies. Of course there are similarities, and one can argue that the extra layer of supervision exists for British Leyland as for Rolls-Royce, but that is only one consideration that we had in mind when we took the decision about the future of Rolls-Royce. As I have said, the close relationship between Rolls-Royce and the Government on defence matters does not apply to British Leyland.

Mr. Whitehead: The Minister said he would answer the debate, but he has not,

as yet, answered one question. Will he now answer one of my questions? At what point is it envisaged that Rolls-Royce should be sold back to the private sector, and what is the timetable? As and when that happens, what kind of accountability will there be?

Mr. Butler: The hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) caught me just as I was trying to find my note about the points that he had made. The point he made in his speech was not the same as the question he has just put to me. He was asking how this close relationship between the Ministry of Defence and Rolls-Royce was compatible with the return of Rolls-Royce to the private sector. The answer is that that is exactly what we shall do with British Aerospace, and if we can do it with British Aerospace—which we shall do successfully—it can be done perfectly well with Rolls-Royce.
My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton, in probably the best contribution to the debate, introduced the important question of the role of public money and the control of it, whether through agencies or directly through the Department. I would commend to my hon. Friend the work done by the Expenditure Committee in 1971–72, when this matter was looked at in considerable detail.
It is possible for supervision to be carried out through the Department. It is done effectively in relation to certain other nationalised industries and it was also done effectively during the five years between the nationalising of Rolls-Royce and that company being handed over to the NEB. If anyone doubts how it worked or whether it worked well, I commend him to look at the minutes of a meeting between Mr. Ian Morrow and the Select Committee to which I have just referred, in February 1972. There, Mr. Morrow described how good his relationship was with the Department and how satisfactory that relationship was in terms of the passing of information and the control, as far as it was necessary, by officials.
Mr. Morrow went so far as to say that the officials with whom he dealt knew more than the board of the company because of the attention they had paid to detail. He was asked specifically:
Can you really say that the contacts you have in the Government Departments are


sufficiently expert to be able to read your balance sheets and all the other information and be fully informed of what is going on?
Mr. Morrow answered:
Yes, I think so.
Since that time, the Department has considerably strengthened itself with the establishment of the industrial development unit, which is staffed by those expert in business and finance seconded from outside the Civil Service. They have given excellent service and they will continue to do so.

Mr. Leadbitter: Will the Minister inform the House whether the Government have yet decided on the financial duty of the new board? If so, what is it? Will he now answer, because lie has not given any indication in his summing up? This is one chance for him to make his name.

Mr. Butler: Presuming that the hon. Member was referring to the new NEB, I must point out that there is no need for a change in financial duty until disposals of assets or the transfer of Rolls-Royce take place. Therefore, there is no change at this moment in the financial duty imposed on the NEB.
A number of hon. Members have sought to show that there is no future for the NEB. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Lee) was very strong in his support of a future for it. He should not need reassurance from me. We have spelt out clearly that the board will continue with its casualty clearing role. The right hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) asked about the regional role. That, too, continues and we have specified that the board will be active in areas of high unemployment. The special role in new technology will also continue but with the added incentive that the board is required to introduce the private sector at the first appropriate moment.
The Secretary of State has explained very carefully why we believe it necessary that Rolls-Royce should be withdrawn from the responsibility of the NEB, and should report instead direct to

him through the Department of Industry. There are particular special circumstances in the Rolls-Royce case. The relationship between the Government and Rolls-Royce is inevitably close, and once the Industry Bill becomes law the Secretary of State, with the benefit of the Department's industrial development unit with its direct business experience, will once again take up the reins from his predecessor.
To suggest that Rolls-Royce will be in any way damaged by the change of responsibility can only be harmful to that company's prospects. Fortunately, Rolls-Royce's customers and suppliers can judge the emptiness of such suggestions by the nature of their source. Those customers and suppliers will look forward, as we shall, to the day when the financial quality of the company is reflected in the private sector participation in ownership and in the strength of its shares on the Stock Exchange.
It is through the private sector route that the future of so many of our nationalised industries must lie. The potential of new industry should be subject to the test of private risk taking. It is so easy for the Government or their agencies to spend other people's money. The future of all industries depends ultimately on their fitness to compete. That fitness can be achieved only through the disciplines of the market place and can be proved only by those disciplines. That is why the Industry Bill requires the NEB to dispose of its shareholdings as soon as appropriate. That policy would have been pursued in response to Parliament's wishes by the previous board. The new board will pursue that policy with vigour in the knowledge that it will be for the benefit of its subsidiaries, their managements and work forces and Britain's industrial economy.
I ask the House to show its support for this policy and for the Government's recent decision on Rolls-Royce, which were taken in the best interests of the company. I hope that the House will also show support for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is laying the foundations for industrial recovery in this country.

Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—

Division No. 111
AYES
10.0 pm


Adams, Allen
Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Meacher, Michael


Allaun, Frank
Ford, Ben
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert


Anderson, Donald
Forrester, John
Mikardo, Ian


Archer, Rt Hon Peter
Fostar, Derek
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce


Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest
Foulkes, George
Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride)


Ashley, Rt Hon Jack
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood)
Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)


Ashton, Joe
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, lichen)


Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)
Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)


Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Morton, George


Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)
Ginsburg, David
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland


Beith, A. J.
Golding, John
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick


Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood
Gourlay, Harry
Newens, Stanley


Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Graham, Ted
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon


Bidwell, Sydney
Grant, George (Morpeth)
Ogden, Eric


Booth, Rt Hon Albert
Grant, John (Islington C)
O'Halloran, Michael


Boothroyd, Miss Betty
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
O'Neill, Martin


Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough)
Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David


Bradley, Tom
Hardy, Peter
Palmer, Arthur


Bray, Dr Jeremy
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Park, George


Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)
Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Parker, John


Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Parry, Robert


Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith)
Haynes, Frank
Pendry, Tom


Buchan, Norman
Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Penhaligon, David


Callaghan, Rt Hon. J. (Cardiff SE)
Heffer, Eric S.
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)


Callaghan, Jim (Middleton &amp; P)
Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)
Prescott, John


Campbell, Ian
Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)
Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)


Campbell-Savours, Dale
Home Robertson, John
Race, Reg


Canavan, Dennis
Homewood, William
Radice, Giles


Cant, R. B.
Hooley, Frank
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)


Carmichael, Neil
Horam, John
Richardson, Miss Jo


Carter-Jones, Lewis
Howells, Geraint
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Huckfield, Les
Roberts, Allan (Bootle)


Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)
Hudson Davies, Gwilym Ednyfed
Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)


Cohen, Stanley
Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)


Coleman, Donald
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)
Robertson, George


Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.
Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)


Conlan, Bernard
Janner, Hon Greville
Rodgers, Rt Hon William


Cook, Robin F.
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Rooker, J. W.


Cowans, Harry
John, Brynmor
Roper, John


Cox, Tom (Wandsworth, Tooting)
Johnson, James (Hull West)
Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)


Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)
Johnson, Walter (Derby South)
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)


Crowther, J. S.
Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)
Rowlands, Ted


Cryer, Bob
Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Ryman, John


Cunliffe, Lawrence
Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Sandelson, Neville


Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Sever, John


Dalyell, Tam
Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Sheerman, Barry


Davidson, Arthur
Kinnock, Neil
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L)


Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Lambie, David
Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)


Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Lamborn, Harry
Short, Mrs Renée


Davis, Clinton, (Hackney Central)
Lamond, James
Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)


Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)
Leadbitter, Ted
Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)


Deakins, Eric
Leighton, Ronald
Silverman, Julius


Dempsey, James
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton &amp; Slough)
Skinner, Dennis


Dewar, Donald
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)


Dixon, Donald
Litherland, Robert
Snape, Peter


Dobson, Frank
Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Soley, Clive


Dormand, Jack
Lyon, Alexander (York)
Spearing, Nigel


Douglas, Dick
Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)
Spriggs, Leslie


Douglas-Mann, Bruce
McCartney, Hugh
Stallard, A. W.


Dubs, Alfred
McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Steel, Rt Hon David


Duffy, A. E. P.
McElhone, Frank
Stoddart, David


Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale)
McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Stott, Roger


Dunnett, Jack
McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Strang, Gavin


Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
McKelvey, William
Straw, Jack


Eadie, Alex
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley


Eastham, Ken
Maclennan, Robert
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)


Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)
McMahon, Andrew
Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)


Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central)
Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)


Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)
McNally, Thomas
Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)


English, Michael
McWilliam, John
Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)


Ennals, Rt Hon David
Magee, Bryan
Thorne, Stan (Preston South)


Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)
Marks, Kenneth
Tilley, John


Ewing, Harry
Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)
Torney, Tom


Faulds, Andrew
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Urwin, Rt Hon Tom


Field, Frank
Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)
Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.


Fitch, Alan
Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)
Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)


Flannery, Martin
Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)


Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)
Maxton, John
Watkins, David


Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Maynard, Miss Joan
Weetch, Ken

The House divided: Ayes 256, Noes 312.

Wellbeloved, James
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Wrigglesworth, Ian


Welsh, Michael
Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Wright, Sheila


White, Frank R. (Bury &amp; Radcliffe)
Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Young, David (Bolton East)


White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)



Whitehead, Phillip
Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Whitlock, William
Winnick, David
Mr. James Tinn and


Wigley, Dafydd
Woodall, Alec
Mr. John Evans.


Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Woolmer, Kenneth





NOES


Adley, Robert
Eggar, Timothy
King, Rt Hon Tom


Alexander, Richard
Elliott, Sir William
Kitson, Sir Timothy


Alison, Michael
Emery, Peter
Knox, David


Amery, Rt Hon Julian
Eyre, Reginald
Lamont, Norman


Ancram, Michael
Fairgrieve, Russell
Lang, Ian


Aspinwall, Jack
Faith, Mrs Sheila
Langford-Holt, Sir John


Atkins, Robert (Preston North)
Farr, John
Latham, Michael


Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)
Fell, Anthony
Lawrence, Ivan


Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Lawson, Nigel


Banks, Robert
Finsberg, Geoffrey
Lee, John


Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Fisher, Sir Nigel
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark


Bell, Ronald
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N)
Lester, Jim (Beeston)


Bendall, Vivian
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)
Fookes, Miss Janet
Lloyd, Ian (Havant &amp; Waterloo)


Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon)
Forman, Nigel
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)


Benyon, W. (Buckingham)
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Loveridge, John


Best, Keith
Fox, Marcus
Luce, Richard


Bevan, David Gilroy
Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Lyell, Nicholas


Biffen, Rt Hon John
Fry, Peter
McAdden, Sir Stephen


Biggs-Davison, John
Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.
McCrindle, Robert


Blackburn, John
Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Macfarlane, Neil


Body, Richard
Gardner, Edward (South Fylde)
MacGregor, John


Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Garel-Jones, Tristan
MacKay, John (Argyll)


Boscawen, Hon Robert
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)


Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)
Glyn, Dr Alan
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)


Bowden, Andrew
Goodhew, Victor
McQuarrie, Albert


Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Goodlad, Alastair
Madel, David


Braine, Sir Bernard
Gorst, John
Major, John


Bright, Graham
Gow, Ian
Marland, Paul


Brinton, Tim
Gower, Sir Raymond
Marlow, Tony


Brittan, Leon
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel)


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Gray, Hamish
Mates, Michael


Brooke, Hon Peter
Greenway, Harry
Mather, Carol


Brotherton, Michael
Grieve, Percy
Maude, Rt Hon Angus


Brown, Michael (Brigg &amp; Sc'thorpe)




Browne, John (Winchester)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Mawby, Ray


Bruce-Gardyne, John
Grylls, Michael
Mawhinney, Dr Brian


Bryan, Sir Paul
Glimmer, John Selwyn
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin


Buck, Antony
Hamilton, Hon Archle (Eps'm&amp;Ew'll)
Mayhew, Patrick


Budgen, Nick
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Mellor, David


Bulmer, Esmond
Hampson, Dr Keith
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Burden, F. A.
Hannam, John
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove &amp; Redditch)


Butcher, John
Haselhurst, Alan
Mills, Iain (Meriden)


Butler, Hon Adam
Hastings, Stephen
Mills, Peter (West Devon)


Cadbury, Jocelyn
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Miscampbell, Norman


Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Hawkins, Paul
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)


Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Hawksley, Warren
Moate, Roger


Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)
Hayhoe, Barney
Molyneaux, James


Chalker, Mrs. Lynda
Heath, Rt Hon Edward
Monro, Hector


Channon, Paul
Heddle, John
Montgomery, Fergus


Chapman, Sydney
Henderson, Barry
Moore, John


Churchill, W. S.
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Morgan, Geraint


Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)
Hicks, Robert
Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)


Clark, Dr William (Croydon South)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hill, James
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)


Cockeram, Eric
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Mudd, David


Colvin, Michael
Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Murphy, Christopher


Cope, John
Hooson, Tom
Myles, David


Cormack, Patrick
Hordern, Peter
Neale, Gerrard


Corrie, John
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Needham, Richard


Costain, A. P.
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)
Nelson, Anthony


Cranborne, Viscount
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Neubert, Michael


Critchley, Julian
Hunt, David (Wirral)
Newton, Tony


Crouch, David
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Normanton, Tom


Dickens, Geoffrey
Kurd, Hon Douglas
Onslow, Cranley


Dorrell, Stephen
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally


Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Osborn, John


Dover, Denshore
Jessel, Toby
Page, John (Harrow, West)


du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)


Dunlop, John
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Parkinson, Cecil


Dunn, Robert (Dartford)
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Parris, Matthew


Durant, Tony
Kaberry, Sir Donald
Patten, Christopher (Bath)


Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Patten, John (Oxford)


Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)
Kilfedder, James A.
Pattie, Geoffrey







Pawsey, James
Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills)
Trotter, Neville


Percival, Sir Ian
Shersby, Michael
van Straubenzee, W. R.


Peyton, Rt Hon John
Silvester, Fred
Vaughan, Dr Gerard


Pink, R. Bonner
Sims, Roger
Viggers, Peter


Pollock, Alexander
Skeet, T. H. H.
Waddington, David


Porter, George
Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam ton)
Wakeham, John


Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)
Speed, Keith
Waldegrave, Hon William


Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Speller, Tony
Walker, Bill (Perth &amp; E Perthshire)


Price, David (Eastleigh)
Spence, John
Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek


Prior, Rt Hon James
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Wall, Patrick


Proctor, K. Harvey
Sproat, Iain
Waller, Gary


Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Squire, Robin
Walters, Dennis


Raison, Timothy
Stainton, Keith
Ward, John


Rathbone, Tim
Stanbrook, Ivor
Warren, Kenneth


Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)
Stanley, John
Watson, John


Rees-Davies, W. R.
Steen, Anthony
Wells, John (Maidstone)


Renton, Tim
Stevens, Martin
Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd &amp; Stev'nage)


Rhodes James, Robert
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Wheeler, John


Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Whitelaw, Rt Hon William


Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Stokes, John
Whitney, Raymond


Ridsdale, Julian
Stradling Thomas, J.
Wickenden, Keith


Rifkind, Malcolm
Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)
Wiggin, Jerry


Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Tebbit, Norman
Wilkinson, John


Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)


Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Winterton, Nicholas


Rost, Peter
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Wolfson, Mark


Royle, Sir Anthony
Thompson, Donald
Young, Sir George (Acton)


Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Younger, Rt Hon George


St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman
Thornton, Malcolm



Scott, Nicholas
Townend, John (Bridlington)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Shelton, William (Streatham)
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and


Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Trippier, David
Mr. Anthony Berry.

Question accordingly negatived.

Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 32 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.

MR. SPEAKER forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to, pursuant to Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply).

Resolved,
That this House welcomes the Government's decision on Rolls-Royce, expresses its appreciation of the services of the members of the National Enterprise Board who have recently resigned, welcomes the appointment

of a strong new board to carry forward the work of the National Enterprise Board and the intention to make further appointments, and endorses the Government's determination to strengthen the role of private capital in industrial reconstruction.

LAW REFORM (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read,

Ordered,

That the Bill be referred to the Scottish Grand Committee.—[Mr. MacGregor.]

SELECT COMMITTEES

Mr. Speaker: Order. Before calling the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) to move the first of the motions relating to Select Committees, I should say a word about the procedure to be followed in the light of the motion on the business of the House agreed to earlier. I am prepared to allow—I think it is important for hon. Members to hear this—a general debate on the first motion. That will then permit all subsequent Questions to be put without further debate, even if proceedings end before the expiry of one and a half hours.
In the general debate reference may be made to the amendments. When the Questions are put at the conclusion of the debate in respect of the motions to which amendments have been tabled, there may be a vote on the first name in the motion, or on subsequent names. However, amendments proposing the addition of new hon. Members to any Committee will not be called for a Division unless the House has first negatived a name proposed in the motion.

Mr. Philip Holland: I beg to move,
That Mr. Richard Body, Sir William Elliott, Mr. Alastair Goodlad, Mr. Douglas Hogg, Mr. Mark Hughes, Miss Joan Maynard, Mr. John Spence, Mr. Roger Stott and Mr. Tom Torney be members of the Agriculture Committee.
At the end of our debate on the motions establishing the departmental Select Committees, which took place on 25 June last, the House decided, without a dissenting voice, to place the responsibility for selecton on the Committee of Selection. It did so without imposing any conditions on the methods to be used by the Committee and without indicating any criteria to be observed. In effect, it gave full discretion to the Committee of Selection to select in any way it wished, to consult or not to consult, to take advice or to refuse to take advice. It is in the context of that decision that the debate takes place tonight.
When the decision was taken, the House was aware of the general procedure adopted by the Committee of Selection in its week-by-week task of selecting right hon. and hon. Members for Standing Committees, because in the preceding

debate I outlined the way in which we normally operated. I said:
I propose a very much more exhaustive examination before making any nominations for the Select Committees, because these are being appointed not for one Bill which is likely to run for not only one or two weeks but for the whole Parliament. There has to be very wide consultation, and we shall have to take very much greater care."—[Official Report, 25 June 1979; Vol. 969, c. 183.]
That proposal was put into effect in two different ways by the two sides of the Committee. The House must understand that we were in new territory and we had to develop a slightly new technique.
On the Government side of the Committee, we determined to encourage individual applications and to discourage any attempt to influence us by our Whips' Office. In other words, we tried to deal direct with our public and were persuaded by no single piece of advice, though we listened to all the advice offered. This was made easy by the fact that at no time did anyone in the Government Whips' Office attempt to exert pressure in favour of or against any of our selections. The Whips' Office passed to us letters and comments that it had received from hon. Members who thought that their best chance of being selected was to make the approach through the Patronage Secretary or those answerable to him. Of course, the Whips answered any questions when we asked them for information.
With all the information that we were able to assemble in our hands, we used the total discretion that the House had willed us. This is clearly evidenced by the conflicting nature of complaints that I have received from my hon. Friends since the motions were laid. I have received protests, on the one hand, that some of my hon. Friends were appointed to Committees other than those of their choice and, on the other, that those of my hon. Friends not selected for the Committees of their choice were not considered for other Committees. I received protests that we did not consider those who failed to volunteer and also that we selected some who did not volunteer. When the House decided that we were to select, I knew that we were on a hiding to nothing, and so it turned out.
Some colleagues complained that we did not pay enough attention to recommendations that they were sure our Whips


would have made to us on their behalf. They clearly felt that we should have been more influenced by the Whips.
On the other hand, as I understand it, the Opposition members of the Committee of Selection presented their recommendations to the Committee only after the facilities of their Whips' Office for gathering voices and making representations had been fully used. Yet there was some criticism that the Opposition members of the Committee of Selection had been too reliant on their Whips.
It is, of course, a simple matter of arithmetic that in selecting from the large number who wished to serve for the small number of vacancies we were bound to displease more than we pleased. We do not complain about that. But I think that it might be for the convenience of the House if I comment on certain allegations attributed to my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) and reported in The Times on Saturday 17 November, as well as the amendments tabled by four hon. Members and, of course, the allocation of minority party places generally.
According to The Times report, my hon. Friend said:
I was happy when I saw the proposed list of members of the Select Committee, but then I learnt that my name was never considered. I believe there has been vetting.
It is of course true that the Committee of Selection, at its regular Wednesday meeting, did not consider the names of any of those who were not selected, since no recommendations were put forward by a member of the Committee for change in any of the individual proposals made by each side of the Committee. On the other hand, my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough was considered by my hon. Friends on the Committee at private meetings as a possible member not only of the Committee for which he applied but for another one for which he was equally qualified. So, I have to tell my hon. Friend, were a number of his hon. Friends who also had to be disappointed, this time owing to the small number of vacancies available. His accusation about some secret departmental vetting does not hold water. He has only to look at the names of some of his hon. Friends not noted for their blind acceptance of Government programmes or even for their blind obedience of the Whips' Office who

were selected to realise how ludicrous such a suggestion is.
However, if my hon. Friend prefers it, I am very happy to give him—as I could have done at any time privately, had he asked me—a categorical assurance that neither Ministers nor Whips imposed their will on the deliberations of the Conservative members of the Committee of Selection when they were considering their nominations. If he thinks that anyone told him otherwise, either he misunderstood what was intended or he received misinformation.
My hon. Friend may also be interested to know that the original application that he sent me and his recent letter asking whether he might be considered for any future vacancies that may arise are side by side in a file in my room, along with all the other correspondence that I have received about the Select Committees, so that whenever a vacancy occurs we can reconsider all those previously disappointed.
In a written answer to a question by my hon. Friend last Monday, I listed three categories of right hon. and hon. Members that the Committee had agreed to exclude from selection. Our failure to exclude two members of these groups, one on each side of the House, proves that members of the Committee of Selection share with right hon. and hon. Members that human frailty, fallibility. We shall of course correct our mistakes at the earliest opportunity if the House approves these motions.
The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough is one that falls within the representational parameters accepted by the Committee of Selection. It is simply a difference of opinion between my hon. Friend and the Committee of Selection. In case my hon. Friend thinks that the right hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) should be excluded as a member of the Shadow Cabinet, I should tell him that we understand that the right hon. Gentleman has now retired to the Back Benches and therefore is eligible to serve on the Select Committees.
From where I stand politically, the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) is a very attractive one. He proposes to give


the Government side of the Scottish Committee an overall majority of three instead of the majority of one in our motion. For a party politician, it is a beguiling suggestion. Regrettably, it is one that I must resist since it does not fall within the representational limitations accepted by the Committee of Selection as reflecting party strengths in the House.
The assumption behind the amendments tabled by the hon. Members for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) and Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"]—to the motion on Welsh affairs is that Wales is not part of the United Kingdom and that the apportionment of places on the Welsh Committee should be related directly to the different parties' representations within the boundaries of the Principality. I have news for the hon. Members for Merioneth and Caernarvon. There was a referendum, and the people of Wales came down heavily against devolution.
The hon. Members are Members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. They may be appointed by the Committee of Selection to any Committee appropriate to their talents, in the same way as any other hon. Member. Indeed, we have proposed in the motion on education that the hon. Member for Merioneth should be a member of the Education Committee. It is a Committee to which we believe the hon. Gentleman can bring valuable expertise and knowledge of the subject.
The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) has, I understand, devised a method of calculating the basis of Opposition minority party representtation to justify the granting of six places on Select Committees to the minority parties instead of the three places proposed by the Committee of Selection. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to do so and to advance his argument. Equally, the Committee of Selection is entitled to have a view. It carries responsibility for making a decision that will be acceptable to the House as a whole. The hon. Gentleman will recall from the days when he served—

Mr. A. J. Beith: rose—

Mr. Holland: No I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be able to catch the

eye of the Chair later, when he will be able to advance his argument. I wish to keep the precise information that I want to give to the House clear and unequivocal.
The hon. Gentleman will recall the days when he served on the Committee of Selection. Whenever there is a change in the composition of the House, the Committee receives from the Clerk a table of the basis of calculation of party representation on Committees of various sizes. However, as no one Opposition minority party is large enough to justify representation on any Committee of the sizes normally set up, the table assumes that all Opposition minority parties are a single party for the purpose of calculation.
The calculation is taken to two places of decimals, so that figures over 0·50 may be rounded up and under 0·50 may be rounded down. On Committees of nine Members the total of all the Opposition minority parties' entitlement is 0·39. On Committees of 11 it is 0·47. Only on a Committee of 13 does the figure exceed half a Member, namely 0·56. If the Committee of Selection had followed its normal practice, the only place offered to the minority parties as a whole would have been on the Scottish Select Committee. However, as minority party Members press claims for other Committees, the major Opposition party surrendered its mathematical right to places on each of three other Committees in return for filling all the Opposition places on the Scottish Committee. That seemed to be a generous exchange. Therefore, the Committee approved Liberal appointments to the Treasury and Welsh Committees and a Plaid Cymru appointment to the Education Committee.
When we were first given the task of selecting the new Select Committees, it was my intention that we should move with all speed to enable the Committees to start work before the Summer Recess. However, since mid-July the members of the Committee of Selection have been subjected to continuing obstruction and frustration. I share with other members of the Committee the hope that tonight will see an end to that obstruction and frustration. I hope that the Select Committees will now be able to get down to work. I wish them well in their endeavours.

Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: We understand and have sympathy with the frustration of my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland). He has a difficult task, and the House much respects the way in which he has undertaken it. Will he please explain why an hon. Member who was the chairman of a Back-Bench Committee, who submitted his application to become a member of the Select Committee on Energy, discovered later—no one informed him in advance—that the Committee of which he was chairman arbitrarily ruled out his aplication? The answer to a written question explains why certain categories have been ruled out. Would it not have been fairer to the House if hon. Members had been told in advance of the ground rules?

Mr. Holland: There were no such ground rules as described by my hon. Friend that were agreed by the Committee of Selection. Individual Members on both sides of the Committee formed their own views about who should and who should not be members of the Committees The question raised by my hon. Friend about Back-Bench Members not being on is not true. In two cases, Back-Bench Members are appointed. But the Committee, in its discretion, decided in other cases to appoint other than Back-Benchers.

Mr. Johnson Smith: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his reassurance. I withdraw the implication of my question.

Mr. William Hamilton: Is this not the great day for the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland)? He will be entitled soon to one of those political honours that we were discussing earlier. He has an unpaid quango under his belt. He is making the best of it.
I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Committee of Selection is no more than an advisory body to this House. It makes recommendations—but only recommendations—to hon. Members. We have the final say about who shall and who shall not sit on these Committees. The basic objection to the procedure adopted by the Leader of the House relates precisely to that issue. The right hon. Gentleman took the House for granted. The right hon. Gentleman and my

own Front Bench got into a cosy arrangement, fixed everything up and told themselves that the matter would go through the House on the nod on a Friday.
They believed that on one would be here or that those who were here would have cleared off by 4 o'clock and the matter could be pushed through without debate. I should like the Leader of the House to know that I shall be here. I am Man Friday in this House. I am here almost every Friday until 4 pm, except last Friday when I cleared off to save myself £9 on my television licence. I would not have got the closure if I had been here. I have no guilt complex on that matter. For the Chairman of the Committee to pretend that the Whips' baleful influence is not felt all the time when Select Committees are being appointed is stretching our credulity too far.
I will let the House into a secret. I have very few. I believe in open government. My party's deputy Chief Whip, some weeks ago, circulated hon. Members asking those who wished to serve on Select Committees to let him know. I let him know. I told him that I wanted to serve on the Public Accounts Committee. That is where I am. Thank you very much.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Order. The Chair had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Hamilton: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. But the message, I believe, has been taken that the Selection Committee does not appoint the Public Accounts Committee. It is done by the Whips on the Front Bench.

Mr. Michael English: My hon. Friend knows, of course, that the Committee on Procedure recommended that the Committee of Selection should nominate all the Select Committees. In a recent debate, some were cut out, and this relates now only to the new Select Committees. I believe that my hon. Friend was in favour of that reduction in the Committee of Selection's power. He favoured, certainly, a reduction in proposals of the Committee on Procedure at the time. There is no difference, on the Floor of the House, between the procedure now, whereby the Committee of Selection recommends names, and the procedure that has existed


all the time that he and I have been hon. Members of this House under which the Whips recommend the names. We are carrying on exactly the same procedure on the Floor of the House. The House has always approved the names. The only difference lies in who recommends them. If an hon. Member objects to the names when recommended by the Committee of Selection—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will catch my eye later.

Mr. Hamilton: I want to get on with what I have to say, because I think that it is important.
The House is sovereign on these matters and must make its position very clear. The Leader of the House cannot expect to get motions of this importance through without debate.
I have tabled an amendment which proposes that the name of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) goes on the Scottish Committee list. I have long had an admiration for the hon. Gentleman. His talents have gone unnoticed for far too long. As a farmer he will do a lot of good for Scotland and particularly for the Labour Party if he appears on that Committee. Therefore, I asked for his consent before I put his name forward. It was only courteous to do that. He at once agreed, because he has a worthwhile contribution to make on the agricultural problems of Scotland in bringing an English mind to them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) has had a marvellous experience of Scottish agriculture. I am quite sure that he has other fish to fry in this place. I know that he would be willing to make the sacrifice for the hon. Member for Harborough. That is why I suggested that my hon. Friend's name be excluded and that of the hon. Gentleman included.

Mr. Norman Buchan: I want to help my hon. Friend. If the matter is put to the vote, I am not so worried about Government supporters; I am more worried about some of my hon. Friends.

Mr. Hamilton: My hon. Friend can put those points in his defence when he speaks in the debate.
I now come to the amendment suggested by the hon. Member for Harborough. He suggested that my name be included in the list of members of the Social Services Committee, in place of that of a former Minister. It is a very good principle not to have ex-Ministers, from either side, serving on any body in the House. A sabbatical of 12 months' silence would be very popular with everybody in the House. Moreover, it would prevent a Minister from being embarrassed at the investigations made by the Committee. He might be responsible for the messes found. I want to prevent him from being embarrassed in that way.
The hon. Member for Harborough makes a humane proposition in putting my name forward. Moreover, I am a sponsored member of the Health Service employees' union. My name instead of that of the ex-Minister is a good choice. I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) understands that.
We must get back to the basic principle that the House must insist that it shall be the final arbiter in the election or appointment of members to these Committees. It would be very healthy if we got rid of our personal embarrassments and any animosities that we might have, one Member against another, and put names forward or suggest names other than those proposed by the Committee of Selection. It would be a far healthier and more democratic process.
Let me say how we selected the Scottish members of our Scottish Committee. Scottish Labour Members elected by secret ballot all the Scottish Members who are proposed for the Committee.

Mr. English: Then why does my hon. Friend oppose them?

Mr. Hamilton: Because democracy is a many-faceted commodity. There is one element in the party that elects the members. Those names are then presented to the final sovereign body, which is the House of Commons. The House as a whole might take a different view—for very good or even very bad reasons—from the Scottish group. That is the very essence of democracy. We in this House are the final sovereign body.

Mr. J. W. Rooker: Is it not remarkable that the


Members who were elected by the Scottish Labour Members of Parliament have been put forward by the Committee of Selection? There is too much of a coincidence there, bearing in mind what was said by the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland).

Mr. Hamilton: We have to take with more than a grain of salt what the Chairman of the Committee of Selection said. He is naive. He is a new boy to the game. He thinks that he is very important now. Let him have his day if he wants it. But we know the thuggery that goes on behind the scenes. He is presented with the names. He says "We have listened to the Whips and we have consulted everybody", but it is all a charade. We all know that. That is why this matter must come back to the Floor of the House and that is why this debate is a very healthy development.

Mr. Gavin Strang: My hon. Friend has done very well to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Scottish Labour group of Members elected the people they wished to serve on the Committee. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend supported that proposition when I put it forward in the Scottish Labour group of Members. Does he agree that the principle of the subject groups electing the Members to go forward should be considered on a wider basis?

Mr. Hamilton: I have always taken that view. I have always been for election of these Committees by the appropriate bodies, whether it is the groups within the parties or whatever, but we have never got round to that proposition. I hope that my party, whatever the other parties do, will think about this more carefully. We are talking a great deal about the democratisation of the Parliamentary Labour Party and other institutions within the party. Let us begin by electing our own members on these Select Committees and then I will take seriously those who are putting that case forward.

Mr. John Farr: My reason for blocking these motions in the House over the last couple of Fridays has been to secure a discussion on the Floor of the Hosue about certain questions I have been seeking to put. My hon.

Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) said that I could have come to see him any time this week or last week. That is true, but my questions are the sort that require not a sound answer in privacy but asking on the Floor of the House to be answered by him.
I have opposed these motions because I am not satisfied with what I call the modus operandi of the Committee. I am fairly naive about the Committee of Selection. I pay tribute to its members. All of those on it that I know are people whom I admire intensely. I have the greatest admiration for my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton. The work that he is doing must be very difficult.
I tabled a question for written answer last Monday seeking an answer from the Chairman of the Committee of Selection on what I termed the criteria that the Committee used in selecting candidates. The answer was not very informative. I can best describe its contents by saying that it begins with the word "No" and that the rest of it does not matter very much.
During the previous week, I tried to table a private notice question to the Chairman of the Committee of Selection. I was told in Mr. Speaker's Office that the last private notice question to be tabled to a Chairman of a Committee of Selection was in 1960–61, and that it was highly unlikely that mine would be selected. I therefore had no other avenue by which to secure the answers that I needed, in a proper and open way, than to use this method tonight. I should like to know what type of vetting, if any, of the candidates considered by the Committee of Selection takes place prior to that consideration.
Vetting can be done by releasing the names of the applicants for a Select Committee to any person not on that Committee of Selection. The House will probably agree that vetting ought to take place, for security reasons, of members of the Defence Committee. I am sure that no sensible hon. Member on either side of the House would see anything wrong in Members of the House who wish to serve on the Defence Committee being positively vetted for security purposes.
A second method of vetting would be vetting by the Whips. I have received an


undertaking from my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip—and I accept his word unreservedly—that none of the candidates for any of the Select Committees was scrutinised by the Government Whips' Office before selection took place. I was a little surprised that such vetting did not take place, because I should have thought that at some stage somebody should scrutinise the list of candidates, otherwise there would be a real chance of all the Left-wingers in one party being put on the Defence Committee and all the Right-wingers in another party being put on the Treasury and Civil Service Committee. I should have thought that at some stage the Whips Office had a duty to scrutinise the list of candidates and to say, for example, "It is not possible to have all these hon. Members, otherwise the Committee will not be representing the delicate view of either of the main parties on any topical issue at the time of selection."

Mr. Philip Holland: My hon. Friend overlooks the fact that the House gave the task of what he calls vetting to the Committee of Selection, and that it was the five Conservative Members on the Committee of Selection who scrutinised all the applications that came to me direct and all that were passed to me from other sources, and who then made their selection. The original selections of those five Members were the ones that we tabled in our motion.

Mr. Farr: My hon. Friend is merely confirming what I have said, which is that I accept unreservedly the assurance that there was no scrutiny by Government Whips. But I am rather surprised that there was not, for the reasons I have just given.
The third form of vetting—I could not support it and I do not think it would meet with the approval of the House—is what I would call Ministry vetting, for lack of another phrase. The 14 Select Committees have been set up to scrutinise the work of 14 different Departments. It would be totally unacceptable to Members of this House if the opinion of a Minister were to be sought by or given, directly or indirectly to, the Committee of Selection on the merits of any candidate for any Select Committee. In addition, it would be totally unacceptable if the names were divulged to any Minister, prior to selec-

tion, for any reason whatever. The House did not set up these Committees to give Ministers and Departments an easy ride.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: As a member of the Committee of Selection, I should like to tell my hon. Friend that there was no question of Ministers vetting any member of the Committees. No member of the Committee of Selection would have accepted that.

Dr. Jeremy Bray: I think that the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Lewis) speaks only for members of the Committee on his own side of the House. I understand that the names of Labour Members were shown to Front Bench spokesmen, and in some cases changes were made.

Mr. Farr: I was saying that I felt that it would be totally unacceptable to both sides of the House if there were any ministerial scrutiny of the lists of candidates before selection took place. It would be totally improper, and unacceptable to both sides of the House, if any Minister or anyone representing a Department had an opportunity to express an opinion before selection about someone who, for instance, might have asked an exceptionally large number of questions about the Department or who, more simply, might be regarded as a toublemaker.
There are three questions on which I should like reassurance from my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton. First, I should like comments on security vetting. If he does not wish to comment on that, the House will understand.
Secondly, I have of course accepted my hon. Friend's word that no Whips' vetting took place on our side, but he might care to comment on whether he believes that he can always secure the proper balance within a party by the Members he chooses, with the aid of my hon. Friends, to serve on any Select Committee.

Mr. Buchan: I am extremely worried by the hon. Gentleman's continually coming back to the question of vetting in relation to the Defence Committee. I understand his sensitivity. The problem seemed to be confined to the upper


classes—people who were educated at Oxford and Cambridge. But if the hon. Gentleman followed that principle there would be no Conservative Members on the Committee.
Seriously, surely the hon. Gentleman should not be raising this matter. It seems to me to be almost a breach of privilege that he is suggesting that that attitude should apply in the minds of the members of the Committee of Selection. I hope that the Committee's Chairman will say so.

Mr. Farr: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will catch the eye of the Chair. Then he can develop that point.
The third matter on which I should like reassurance relates to ministerial scrutiny before the lists are considered.

Mr. Philip Holland: rose—

Mr. Farr: I am about to quote what my hon. Friend said 10 minutes ago—that Ministers may not impose their will upon members of the Committee of Selection. I am not suggesting that they impose their will on members of the Committee on the Conservative side. All that I am seeking from my hon. Friend is an assurance that at no time are Ministers or their representatives consulted before final selection is made.

Mr. Philip Holland: My hon. Friend got the quotation wrong. What I said was that I could give a categorical assurance that neither Ministers nor Whips imposed their will. My hon. Friend said "could never impose their will". I cannot speak of the future. I said "imposed their will on the deliberations of the Conservative members of the Committee of Selection when they considered their nominations."
I reiterate firmly, in answer to all my hon. Friend's questions, that the five Conservative Members on the Committee of Selection made a free choice of their selections for each Select Committee at a private meeting, and no change was subsequently made to any of those selections. There was no interference by any Government Department. I was not in touch with any Government Department; nor, so far as I am aware, was any member of my Committee in touch with any Government Department, and we had no interference from the Whips'

Office asking us to remove or change any names.

Mr. Farr: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that lengthy intervention. Of course I accept unreservedly all that he says.
There is one other matter, which relates to the wisdom of the House in setting up these 14 Select Committees. I am one who thinks that the old Select Committee system served the House very well. When there was a special project or need, a special Select Committee was set up, and it did a very good job. What I cannot reconcile are the remarks and advice that I received from My Front Bench, in common with my other hon. Friends, about the need to make economies in Government spending and the public service with the setting up of 14 new Select Committees, all of which will have to be serviced by highly paid, effective and newly recruited or allocated staff. Indeed, only this weekend my right hon. Friend exhorted the town and county halls to effect economies.
I think that this is the wrong time at which to set up these 14 Select Committees. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, speaking in a place called Saundersfoot, in Wales, at the weekend, referred to Britain's ratepayers and advised them to rebel over rises. He told a women's conference in Dyfed that
it was nonsense to say the expenditure cuts threatened the structure of local government
When urging local government to economise, he added that he had managed
to reduce employment in the Welsh Office without redundancies
and he said that
local government should look to its own staff levels".

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Farr: Just let me finish this point. It seems to me to be illogical to urge the town and county halls to make the utmost economies in their overheads, when, by the stroke of a pen or by the affirmation of a vote tonight, we shall set up 14 Select Committtees that will vastly increase the overheads here at Westminster.

Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.


Surely the House took a decision in this Session to set up the 14 Committees. The House having taken that decision, surely it is not in order to debate whether or not that should have been taken.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Genteleman is quite correct. There was a decision, but that does not mean that we can never refer to it again.

Mr. Kenneth Lewis: My hon. Friend gave way to me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, prior to the point of order. Does my hon. Friend not find it surprising that at the end of his long speech he is now complaining about the setting up of these Select Committees and their cost, whereas his real complaint is that he submitted his name and he wanted to sit on one?

Mr. Farr: All along I have striven to avoid personalities, because I think that the principles that I have been trying to place before the House are rather more important. I do not know whether my hon. Friend is in order in referring to me, since he is a member of the Committee of Selection and I thought that the contents of applications were quite private.

Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend said so himself.

Mr. Farr: I did not. My hon. Friend referred to my name in public. I did apply to that Committee, but when I saw those who had been selected I was not in the slightest bit surprised that I was not chosen, because some of them were hon. Friends of a very high calibre. The only reason that I persisted in blocking these motions was to have the opportunity to ask my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton the questions that I have asked tonight, because I believe that these raise principles that are of greater importance than any hon. Member of this House.

Mr. A. J. Beith: When the Select Committee on procedure recommended that the task of putting forward motions with the names of Members of Select Committees should fall to the Committee of Selection, it was with the deliberate intention of removing this onerous duty from the Whips' Offices, which would otherwise be expected to carry it out. It was recognised by some of us at the time that it was unlikely to

be successful in this objective, and that there was a touch of naivety about it.
I find it extraordinary that the report of the Committee should have contained quite a lengthy apology for passing this burdensome duty on to the Committee of Selection, with the suggestion that it would take a great deal of time and a lot of trouble. I suppose that that cannot be gainsaid. On the other hand, nothing else that the Committee of Selection does takes very much time. I served on it for quite a while, and it was unusual for our meetings to last more than six or seven minutes. I recall one occasion when the proceedings of the Committee were completed in less than a minute and five decisions were taken. It depends on how quickly one can read the list of names supplied by the Whips' Office. It is possible to do it very quickly, and to have a most efficient and productive Committee. I refer to the appointments to Standing Committees and Statutory Instruments Committees, not these new Committees. It was certainly never the intention of the procedure Committee that the Committee of Selection should handle these Committees in the same way.
What do we find when the job is actually done? The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Harrison) comes swimming back into the picture as large and as noticeable as ever. I wonder why he is not made the Chairman of the Committee of Selection.
I suggest that the Committee of Selection failed in a number of its responsibilities to the House in the course of this exercise. I say this although the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) is the most courteous Member and I do not think that any hon. Member would criticise him. I refer to the Committee's general approach to the task. I wonder why, at its first meeting to set up these Select Committees, the Committee of Selection did not circulate a notice inviting Members of all parties to send in their applications to serve on such Committees. That would have been the obvious thing to do. But, no, it left the initiative in the hands of the Whips' office. At no stage did it set out a procedure which made clear that Members who wanted to get on Committees should make their wishes known first to the Committee of Selection itself. Had it done that—

Mr. Philip Holland: rose—

Mr. Beith: The hon. Member did not give way to me, so I shall not bother to give way to him.
The Committee of Selection then began to behave as if it were two entirely separate Committees. The hon. Member for Carlton talked about Conservative Members of the Committee holding a private meeting to discuss the representations received from Conservative Members. That implied that no Conservative Members had any friends on any other side of the House. It was almost as if any suggestion made by any Labour Member about a Conservative Member would be to that Members detriment. This is a serious point. The Committee of Selection is expected to behave as if it were a whole committee, and not two caucuses that ever meet only to record the decisions that each had taken. That is what the Committee was doing. The trouble was that the Labour Members did not actually behave in this way—and that was what went wrong with the procedure of the hon. Member for Carlton. They did not conduct their caucus meeting in the appropriate manner. Indeed, the caucus and the Whips fell out at one point in the proceedings, and we had fascinating walk-outs from the Committee of Selection.
But even if this procedure had gone like clockwork it would not be the way in which one would expect a Committee of the House to behave, least of all a Committee of Selection for Select Committees. Indeed, the whole thing about Select Committees is that they do not behave like two separate bodies, but arrive at decisions, because a group of Members jointly discover that something is wrong and should be put right. The way in which the Committee conducted its affairs meant that Labour Members clearly did not know to whom they were beholden, unless they were wise enough to realise from the start that it was the right hon. Member for Wakefield, who was making all the decisions. I refer particularly to the position of the minority parties.
Another thing that the Committee of Selection never did was to decide what the representations of the minority parties should be. The right hon. Member for Wakefield decided that. The hon.

Member for Carlton said that with kindness and generosity the Labour Members had decided that they would give a certain number of their places to minority parties on the Committee. That is not really a very reasonable or sensible way of running a Committee. The right hon. Member for Wakefield can be quite generous on occasions, but I would hate to run any organisation beholden entirely to his generosity.

Mr. English: The hon. Gentleman will have to wait for some of them. Do I get the impression that the Liberal Party is offering to give up its seat on the Welsh Affairs Committee to Plaid Cymru?

Mr. Beith: I do not know why the hon. Gentleman should have got that impression. I have not got on to the subject of the Welsh Affairs Committee. If he wants me to talk about that, I will. However, I was talking about the fact that the Committee of Selection did not at any stage—certainly not in the initial stages when it should have done—come to a decision about the number of minority places that there should be on the Committee. As is the case with every other Committee that it appoints, it should decide on the balance of parties and not leave the matter to the Labour Party.
I wrote to the hon. Member for Carlton on 3 July 1979, saying:
I imagine that at this week's meeting, the Committee of Selection will be considering the criteria for nominating members of Select Committees.
I went on to suggest what, in my view, would be the appropriate number of places for the Liberal Party within the group allocated to minority parties as a whole. I have still not received a reply to that letter. I do not believe that the Committee of Selection has made a decision about the matter. It has simply ratified the suggestions made by the right hon. Member for Wakefield—which have given us one or two places on the Committees—and has done no more in the matter.

Mr. Walter Harrison: The hon. Gentleman's party has done very well.

Mr. Beith: I wish that the right hon. Member for Wakefield would make a speech. All my time in this place I have


been waiting for his speech. I have to content myself with interjections.

Mr. Harrison: Whips are not allowed to speak on matters of this kind.

Mr. Beith: I am sure that an exception could be made for the right hon. Member for Wakefield.

Mr. Harrison: The hon. Gentleman will get a slating tonight.

Mr. Beith: On the calculations made by the hon. Member for Carlton and on the most narrow arithmetical calculations there would be no minority Members on any Committee of this House with less than 24 Members. The House does not operate in that way. If it did there would be no minority party Members on the Committee of Privileges, the House of Commons Commission or any of the bodies which govern the affairs of the House.
I suggested to the Committee of Selection that the sensible way to allocate places to minority parties was on the basis of the total number of places created by the new Committees and to apply the normal arithmetrical criteria to that total, as if we were dealing with one Committee of 120 or 130 Members. On that basis, there should be five or six minority places on the Committees as a whole. One of the fascinating things which has never emerged in these discussions is how many places the Committee thought should be allocated to Ulster Unionist Members and to whom they should go. All hon. Members might like to bid for vacant Ulster Unionist places which have never been allocated. Once again, the Committee of Selection was content to do what the right hon. Member for Wakefield told it.
It is a sad reflection on the way in which the Committee sets out its work that it should have failed in a series of three tests: first, to make itself the body responsible for appointing Members to the Committee; secondly, to ensure that when the appointment process was interminably delayed by whatever was going on in the Whips' Office it did not tolerate that and went on to make nominations; and, thirdly, to decide what the balance of parties should be on the Committees and tell the minority parties the number of places allocated to them so that their

Members could make applications. To have failed in these three distinct ways to carry out the instructions given by the House seems to be a serious omission on the part of the Committee of Selection and a good reason for thinking of a better way to handle the matter next time we do so.

Mr. Michael English: The procedure Committee considered this matter on two occasions. On the first occasion it decided that the Committee of Selection should be elected by the House of Commons in a different way from that in which it is normally elected. Every Committee of the House is elected by the House on a first-past-the-post majority basis. That has always been so. That is also true of the Committee of Selection.
In its first discussion of the matter, the Procedure Committee suggested that the Committee of Selection could be elected in the same way as are the executive committees of the IPU and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, with Members of all parties voting for a given proportion of each party, so that the majority party would have a majority on the Committee, but the members would be elected by hon. Members of all parties. That suggestion was rejected when the Procedure Committee discussed the matter for the second time.
However, we thought that it was worth while to retain the idea that the Committee of Selection should recommend to the House the membership of Select Committees. Our idea was that it should be slightly different from the Whips alone making recommendations to the House. There is no difference in terms of the procedure on the Floor of the House, but it is interesting that the result should have been different, because in a way that proves that the Procedure Committee was right.
My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) and the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) did not object when the Whips used to recommend the membership of Select Committees. I do not suggest that my memory is perfect, but I cannot remember one occasion in the 15 years that I have been an hon. Member when either of those hon. Members objected to the


membership of any Select Committee proposed by the Whips. [Interruption.] The Whips of the major parties are not allowed to speak.

Mr. Beith: I distinctly recall that when the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) was Government Chief Whip he spoke from the Government Dispatch Box at considerable length on one occasion.

Mr. English: I accept that, but the hon. Gentleman will recollect that we replaced my right hon. Friend. The tradition of the major parties, which some have broken, is that Whips do not speak. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that he will shortly be replaced in his own party.
The Procedure Committee did not recommend, and the House has not approved, any change in the method of appointing Select Committees. We have changed the method of recommending memberships of them to the House and we have proved our point. Once something is recommended by a Committee, it will be discussed on the Floor of the House. We are doing that now. These matters were never discussed when recommendations were made solely by the Whips of both Front Benches. That proves the Procedure Committee's point and I recollect that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) was as much in favour of the change as I was at the time.
I suggest that we should retain the new procedure and perhaps consider whether the method of appointment of the Committee of Selection is right—which is a matter on which the Procedure Committee was in two minds. Surely it must be better for the whole country if all these Select Committees and, I hope, others are discussed by the House. I disagree with the hon. Members who have spoken so far, but surely the matter should be discussed. Hitherto, when the names of hon. Members on Select Committees were put before the House, no hon. Members said a word because they were frightened of the Front Benches. That cannot be right.
The Procedure Committee has not got it totally right, but it has got it partly right, and I hope that during this Parliament the House will consider how we can improve the procedure.

Mr. Dafydd Wigley: I apologise—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. I understand that he was not here when Mr. Speaker gave his ruling. We are having a general debate on the first motion on the Order Paper and reference may be made to the other motions and the amendments before us.

Mr. Wigley: I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was about to apologise for missing the opening speeches. Having seen the debate on the Agriculture Committee motion go on for so long, I came to the conclusion that the debate could not be solely on that subject, and I rushed into the Chamber
There was a time, not many months ago, when we used to say in the House "We are all minorities now". Sadly, those times have gone.
We are now living with the consequences. We no longer have those nostalgic telephone calls on a Sunday from the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Harrison) asking about our health and whether it will last until Tuesday. Nor do Conservative Members now check on the ones and twos in the House. The ones and the twos do not matter so much now and the democratic system of first-past-the-post in general elections appears to work in the Select Committees.
In principle, Select Committees can be useful. They have a role to play. However, I have grave doubts about the way in which they have been set up. Traditionally, the House has accepted and respected that the balance of the parties within Wales and Scotland will be reflected on the Scottish Grand Committee and the Welsh Grand Committee respectively. The Welsh Grand Committee met last Wednesday. It is true that three Conservative Members from England were added to that Committee, but that made only 14 Members out of a total of 39. It was therefore not possible for the Welsh Grand Committee to reflect the balance in the House by any stretch of the imagination. It reflected rather the balance of the parties in Wales.
The same is true of the Scottish Grand Committee. That Committee also reflects the balance of the parties in Scotland.


That is only right and fair, because the Select Committees, or Grand Committees, are debating issues of particular and peculiar interest to the people of Scotland or Wales. That would not be an issue of little import if the Select Committees or Grand Committees were taking a vote and a decision that was conclusive, and if there were not a requirement to come back to this Chamber for a substantive decision.
However, that is not the way in which we operate, nor is it the way in which the Select Committees will be operated. The weight of opinion and evidence is overwhelming. In terms of fair play, representation on the Scottish Select Committee and on the Welsh Select Committee should reflect the balance of the parties in Scotland and Wales as well as possible.
Conservative Members pride themselves on the concept of fair play. They should therefore ensure that at the very least each party has a voice on that Committee. Each party has its own peculiar standpoint even if hon. Members do not always agree with it. The composition of Committees that has been put forward by the Committee of Selection frustrates that point because the minority of minorities—the smallest possible minority party, a party of two—does not have a part in the normal exchanges that take place when such Committees are set up.

Mr. Harrison: We must start to reveal the truth. On each occasion that there was any consideration regarding these particular Select Committees I personally went to each minority party and consulted it. The initiative was not taken by anyone else. I discussed the issue fully with every minority party.

Mr. Wigley: I accept that the right hon. Member for Wakefield talked to us, but is that the only channel that we can use in order to gain representations? We have no direct voice, as of right, on the Committee of Selection. There was no attempt to delineate how many Members should be on the Committee to get a balance and then to allocate them. We were in the hands of the gauleiter from Wakefield. He was benevolent, but we were in his hands. There was no opportunity for us to have a voice as of right.

Mr. English: Did the hon. Gentleman write to the Chairman or the Clerk to the Committee of Selection on this issue?

Mr. Wigley: There has been a barrage of correspondence on this issue. I shall not go into all the details, but some Conservative Members are aware of them.
The balance in Wales at the general election, given that we have an 11-member Select Committee for Wales, lends itself ideally to a composition as follows: that the Labour Party, which has been the dominant party in Wales since the First World War, would justify six out of the 11 places; that the Conservative Party, which did better than for many years but is a minority party in Wales, would be entitled to three places; and that the Liberal Party and Plaid Cymru, at about the 10 per cent. mark, would be entitled to one place each. That would make up the 11-member Committee in a balance that reflected opinions in Wales and gave each party an opportunity to have its say. At the end of the day, the decisions—if decisions arise from the deliberations of the Committee—would come back to the House. Then the Conservative Party—the party in Government with an overall majority—could always have its way.
We are seeking for the right to have a voice on these Committees. We are asking for the opportunity to ask questions. If this Parliament cannot afford to small minorities in Scotland and Wales the right to ask questions, there is something fundamentally wrong.

Mr. Edward du Cann: I think that I can make my point in a few short sentences. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) is entirely right in saying that there is advantage in debating the membership of the Committees in whose favour the House so clearly voted some months ago. But I have said to him privately—and I say now to his face in the Chamber—that I am certain that debate could easily have been arranged without obstruction of the will of the House in the establishment of these Committees over successive weeks. I am sorry that we have delayed in setting up the Committees.
I must comment that the style of this debate will have done the dignity of the House little good. I was staggered at the facetiousness of the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton). He is a most serious, competent and admirable Member, but to treat the subject with the levity that he did was a great pity.
I must also remark that the plaints of the minority parties were unattractive. It has been my long experience in this Chamber that, if anything, we treat minority parties with extreme generosity. The representatives of these trivial parties have only to stand to their feet in main debates to be called. Many of us in the last Parliament were more than aggrieved at the priority that the House, in its generosity, afforded to them.

Mr. Beith: Four million votes.

Mr. du Cann: Furthermore, I had the honour, on behalf of the House, to be Chairman of the first Expenditure Committee and to establish it. Then, after that, I was for five years the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. I reflected during that time that, when it came to the serious work in the House, the minority parties were conspicuously absent. Certainly it was true of the Liberal representative on the PAC. He came, found that there were no opportunities for personal publicity, and promptly left.

Mr. Beith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. du Cann: No, I shall not.
Thirdly, I disagree strongly with my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough about the way in which he has approached this subject. I do not impugn his sincerity for a moment, for not only is he my hon. Friend in the parliamentary sense but he is also my friend. But the House should reflect upon one simple matter. Over the lifetimes of us all the power of the Executive has grown constantly and inexorably, and we on the Back Benches, deplorably, have connived at that. It is time that we brought matters under better control.
I have nothing but admiration for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. He put before right hon. and hon. Members the clear recommendations of the procedure Committee within

seven weeks of the general election. That was as near immediate as anyone could wish. After all, there was an interruption for the European election, and there were many other complexities. We had an immediate debate in this House and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) said in his striking speech, we agreed promptly nemine contradicente to establish these Committees. Since then, there has been a wrangle between the two sides of the House about the chairmanships. There has been a wrangle within the Labour Party about the membership of the Committees. Lately, we have had individual obstruction. There may be detailed matters which are wrong with this or that Committee—membership, status or activity. This will all come out when they begin their work.
But I am certain that the country looks to us to see that those Committees start their work, and promptly. Already we have wasted far too much time. I hope with all my heart that this House will agree tonight to start these Committees to work, and let us by all means review how they are getting on as time goes on.

Mr. David Ennals: I hope that the House will decide to establish the Select Committees, because I believe that the task of the new Committees is of very great importance.
I much regret what the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) said about minorities. I say that not so much on behalf of my own party but on behalf of other parties, because the essence of these Select Committees is that they represent the House as a whole. I hope that we shall not find Committees divided into groups of five and four, and so on. I believe that those who find themselves serving on these Committees will regard themselves as being responsible to the House. The experience of other Select Committees has been that people have learnt to work together as a team, and I believe that that will happen in these new Committees.
However, on both sides of the House there is a good deal of dissatisfaction about the way in which the selection has worked. I do not seek to blame the Committee of Selection. This debate should have taken place a long time ago. We should have discussed beforehand


how the procedures were to work and what sort of consultation there should be. I believe that my own party should have consulted the specialist groups concerned with each of the subjects to see how they felt about the right hon. and hon. Members who should be on the Select Committees.
I intervene in this debate partly because the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) seeks in his amendment to delete only my name from the list of members of the Social Services Committee. The argument appears to be that we should not include anyone who has been a Minister. That seems to be nonsense. I am not a Minister. I am not on the Opposition Front Bench. I sit on the Back Benches. I behave as I believe a Back Bencher should. I suppose that it is a disadvantage for some to have on a Select Committee an hon. Member who has a deep knowledge of the range of work of the Committee. But that to me does not seem to be a disadvantage.
I hope that no one will think that we would leave hon. Members off Select Committees because of their experience of the work that the Committees have to perform. I hope that the House will decide to establish the Select Committees. I am not arguing that I should be given a place. If my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) takes my place, that will be fine. It is my wish to see the Committees establishd and getting on with their job.

Mr. William Walker: I intervene because I am concerned that the voice of Scotland has been taken as the voice of Central Fife. That is not the view that I should wish to hear north of the border. The new Scottish Select Committee is seen as an important part of Scotland's government. We look to it to do a good job for Scotland. We look to all hon. Members, from whatever party, to do a good job for Scotland. Scotland is certainly looking to us to do a good job.
I was tempted by the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton). It is a rather mischievous amendment. It seemed appealing to have additional Conservative Members

sitting as representatives on the new Scottish Select Committee. However, when I considered the proposition further I realised that the people of Scotland would not take kindly to such a move. They would see it for what it is. They would much prefer to see a Scot asking questions of Scottish Ministers.
It has been suggested that all Conservative Members should be disqualified from membership of the Defence Committee following positive vetting. I hope that that remark will be withdrawn. It would not apply to me. As I understood it, it was something to do with background. That is not what Britain is seeking. The people are looking to us to do something, and we have a unique opportunity through the Select Committees. We have all said that something needs to be done. Let us get on with the job. I hope that we shall do something positive this evening.

Mr. Norman Buchan: It may be that the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker) was referring to me. I picked up the argument about positive vetting. It seems to be a dangerous task to throw to any Committee. It was an argument that was uncalled for and I regret that it was advanced.
I am pleased to know that there are some on the Conservative Benches who want to see the Scottish Committee unchanged. I have a vested interest in it and I welcome that support.
The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) is a brave man. I remember reluctant recruits to the Scottish Grand Committee. We used to say that the extra English Members joined the Scottish Grand Committee as compensation for their political honours. There were so many knights that my friend Willie Ross used to describe the Committee as the "knight shift". Even bolder is the House when it calls on a Member to undertake that task. He will find it difficult. He will have to be au fait with Scottish affairs. He will need to know not only Jock Stein but Andy Ritchie. He will need to know the difference between Jimmy Airlie and Jimmy Reid. He will need to know the name of Scotland's other national drink. There is a range of things that he will need to know.

Mr. Rooker: What is the name of the other national drink?

Mr. Buchan: Barr's irn bru.
I deplore the attack that has been made on minority parties. I deplore the undercurrent of criticism of dissent. I welcome dissent. I must tell the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) that, whatever has happened in his own party, it is not right to say that the SNP was disregarded. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Harrison) has given the House his explanation. I spoke to the leader of the SNP, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan). Every opportunity was given to the SNP to have a Member on the Scottish Select Committee. Apparently it did not wish to have one. We have seen the usual letters appearing in The Scotsman, and it is time that the SNP charges were rebutted. I do not intend to join in the argument, but this is the proper place in which to rebut it.
There is another problem facing the hon. Gentleman. It arises out of the manner in which the Scottish Members were chosen.

Mr. Albert McQuarrie: The hon. Gentleman said that he had asked SNP Members whether they wished to have a seat on the Scottish Committee and they had declined the invitation. If my memory serves me aright, it was said not long ago in the press in Scotland that the former Secretary of Scotland, the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Milian), had approached the SNP and offered a deal, which was that the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) should take a seat on the Committee and he had accepted the offer. Why, therefore, is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the SNP did not accept the seat?

Mr. Buchan: I should thank the hon. Gentleman for being helpful, but I do not know that he has been. He has asked me to comment on a report in the press. I know nothing about that. What I do know is what I said, namely, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield spoke to the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), that a week later my right hon. Friend the Member for Craigton spoke to him and that on the same evening I spoke to the

right hon. Gentleman. At that time there was apparently no inclination on the part of the SNP to go on to that Committee. I know nothing about the press comment.

Mr. Harrison: I am willing to help my hon. Friend and anyone else on this occasion. As I have said before, I consulted everyone concerned. During the 10 or 11 years that those concerned have been dealing with Select Committees there has been very little trouble. However, on this occasion, with this great democracy that has arrived, there have been so many fingers in the pie, and so many people requesting others to serve on a committee, that there has been confusion. The right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) was approached by at least five people, and he wondered what was happening to him. In answer to the official approach he said "No, I decline", but the others put so much pressure on the right hon. Gentleman that he was thinking of changing his mind.

Mr. Buchan: I hope that that settles it, because that is the record as I understand it.

Mr. Wigley: Will the hon. Gentleman take it from me that my understanding is that there was a general invitation to SNP Members to say whether they wanted to be on Committees in general? They replied that, with only two Members instead of the 11 that they had had in the previous Parliament, it would be difficult for them to do as much Committee work as they did in the previous Parliament. That was interpreted as implying that they did not want to be on the Scottish Committee.
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that if the SNP had wanted to be on the Committee it should have been represented there? Does he accept that other minority parties should be on Committees if they want to be represented on them? Does he further accept that, as the Select Committees have been formulated in this way, it appears that a grave injustice is being done in that there are members from other parties who did not want to be on these Committees but were put there? Why was it not possible to ensure the balance by putting them on the Committees whether or not they wanted to be there?

Mr. Buchan: I am neither the Chairman of the Committee of Selection nor


the right hon. Member for Wakefield. I can talk only about that which I know and that with which I am concerned. There are points of difference. The first point of difference is that the Scottish Committee was to have had 13 Members Secondly, I accept the comment that the SNP now has only two Members in Parliament and therefore they would be too occupied if they were on the Committee. I take that as more than implying a refusal. I take it as a refusal, and therefore I stand by what I said. I am not referring to anything said by the SNP. I am talking about what has been said by the hon. Member for Caernarvon tonight.
I agree that there is no case for keeping former Ministers off the Select Committees. I was a good Front Bencher as Front. Benchers go. As good Front Benchers go, I went. I hope that that will not be a barrier.
There is dissatisfaction. We know how this place operates. It does not always operate by directives and patronage. It operates by a series of winks and nods and a series of understandings. We know the pressure that can be brought by both Front Benches. This is what my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) and the hon. Member for Harborough are trying to resist. I have a great deal of sympathy with them. But there is a solution. Better progress is sometimes made by accident. When the King's head was cut off by accident, it seemed a good idea to a lot of people who followed after him.
We have stumbled on a good idea in the Scottish group of Labour MPs. We have decided that the six Members shall be decided by vote. It is a principle that should be extended, certainly on this side of the House and, I would hope, elsewhere among Back Benchers to try to get people who are representative. It has been extraordinarily successful. There is a remarkable balance of opinion. If the hon. Member for Harborough replaces me, he will have to join the Tribune group or the balance will be severely shaken.
I cast myself at the mercy of the House. If it feels that the hon. Member for Harborough is better qualified to interpret Billy Connolly than I am, then so be it.

Mr. Michael Foot: Not having been a lifelong enthusiast for the establishment of Select Committees, I speak with some diffidence in this debate. The hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) emphasised the fact that the House made its decision some time ago on the question of principle. The House having done that, we would be wise to proceed as speedily as possible to the establishment of the Committees themselves. We will then be able to see the result, who was right and who was wrong in their prophecies about how this experiment might work.
The debate has served a useful purpose in relation to the method by which these appointments are made. I do not accept the remarks of the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) that this debate was unsatisfactory or that it has served no useful purpose. I believe that the debate may influence the way in which the Committee of Selection operates in future. Before we come to new selections, perhaps in the new Parliament or some other time, the House itself may wish to lay down some other criteria. The questions about the smaller parties are important. The House might consider all the questions that have been properly put forward in the debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) said that the House is sovereign. That is correct. Every Committee, including the Committee of Selection, must understand that this is the situation. No one can contest my hon. Friend's view. My hon. Friend is always extremely persuasive. He was so persuasive that I almost considered accepting his advice to agree that the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) should serve on the Committee. On hearing the hon. Member for Harborough, I revised my opinion and thought that we should revert to the status quo. That is probably the general decision of the House itself.
If no vote takes place at the end of these proceedings, that would probably be the most agreeable way of settling the matter. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has been meticulously careful to be present to hear every word of the debate. For the last one and a half hours, he has been weighing every inflexion and every nuace.

Mr. Dennis Skinner: rose—

Mr. Foot: I have only half a second. My hon. Friend is not going to have half of that half second. He may wish to vote on the matter. Having listened to the whole debate—

Mr. Skinner: Some of us have not changed.

Mr. Foot: I have not changed my view at all on the matter.

Mr. Skinner: We do not need to listen to debates.

Mr. Foot: If only my hon. Friend would conduct the novel experiment of listening with his ears instead of his voice, a whole new world would open to him. I believe that this debate has been

Division No. 112]
AYES
11.45 pm


Alexander, Richard
Fisher, Sir Nigel
Mellor, David


Ancram, Michael
Fookes, Miss Janet
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Ashton, Joe
Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove &amp; Redditch)


Aspinwall, Jack
Forman, Nigel
Mills, Iain (Meriden)


Atkins, Robert (Preston North)
Foster, Derek
Morgan, Geraint


Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)


Banks, Robert
Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Mudd, David


Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Murphy, Christopher


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)
Golding, John
Myles, David


Berry, Hon Anthony
Gorst, John
Neale, Gerrard


Best, Keith
Gow, Ian
Nelson, Anthony


Bevan, David Gilroy
Gower, Sir Raymond
Neubert, Michael


Blackburn, John
Grieve, Percy
Newton, Tony


Boscawen, Hon Robert
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
O'Neill, Martin


Bowden, Andrew
Gummer, John Selwyn
Page, John (Harrow, West)


Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)


Bray, Dr Jeremy
Hampson, Dr Keith
Palmer, Arthur


Bright, Graham
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Parris, Matthew


Brinton, Tim
Haselhurst, Alan
Parris, Matthew


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hawksley, Warren
Patlen, Christopher (Bath)


Brooke, Hon Peter
Heddle, John
Patten, Jonn (oxford)


Brotherton, Michael
Hicks, Robert
Pawsey, James


Cadbury, Jocelyn
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Pollock, Alexander


Cant, R. B.
Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)


Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Hooson, Tom
Radice, Giles


Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)
Hunt, David (Wirral)
Rathbone, Tim


Chapman, Sydney
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Renton, Tim


Cockeram, Eric
Jessel, Toby
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)


Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy


Colvin, Michael
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman


Cope, John
Lamont, Norman
Sheerman, Barry


Costain, A. P.
Lang, Ian
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L)


Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)
Lawrence, Ivan
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)


Crouch, David
Leadbitter, Ted
Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills)


Crowther, J. S.
Lee, John
Short, Mrs Renée


Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)
Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Sims, Roger


Dewar, Donald
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Dobson, Frank
Lyell, Nicholas
Speller, Tony


Dormand, Jack
Lyon, Alexander (York)
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)


Dorrell, Stephen
McAdden, Sir Stephen
Sproat, Iain


Dover, Denshore
McCrindle, Robert
Squire, Robin


du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Macfarlane, Neil
Stevens, Martin


Duffy, A. E. P.
MacGregor, John
Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)


Dunlop, John
MacKay, John (Argyll)
Stott, Roger


Emery, Peter
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Stradling Thomas, J.


English, Michael
McQuarrie, Albert
Tebblt, Norman


Ennals, Rt Hon David
McWilliam, John
Temple-Morris, Peter


Eyre, Reginald
Major, John
Thompson, Donald


Fairgrieve, Russell
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Thornton, Malcolm


Faith, Mrs Sheila
Maxton, John
Townend, John (Bridlington)


Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)

a perfectly reasonable one for the House to conduct.

I believe also that it is right for the House to consider the recommendations, particularly since we are embarking on a new experiment with the establishment of these kinds of Committees. I hope that the Government—I am not suggesting that the present outfit will still be in office in 12 months' time when these matters are considered afresh—

It being one and a half hours after the motion had been entered upon, Mr. DEPUTY Speaker proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the proceedings:—

The House divided: Ayes 166, Noes 17.

Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Wheeler, John



Waddington, David
Whitehead, Phillip
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Waldegrave, Han William
Wickenden, Keith
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and


Walker, Bill (Perth &amp; E Perthshire)
Woolmer, Kenneth
Mr. Carol Mather


Waller, Gary
Young, Sir George (Acton)





NOES


Beith, A. J.
Leighton, Ronald
Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)


Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Parry, Robert
Wigley, Dafydd


Canavan, Dennis
Penhaligon, David
Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)


Cryer, Bob
Rooker, J. W.



Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Howells, Geraint
Skinner, Dennis
Mr. John Farr and


Lamond, James
Soley, Clive
Mr. William Hamilton.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Ordered,
That Mr. Richard Body, Sir William Elliott, Mr. Alastair Goodlad, Mr. Douglas Hogg, Mr. Mark Hughes, Miss Joan Maynard, Mr. John Spence, Mr. Roger Stott and Mr. Tom Torney be members of the Agriculture Committee.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: then proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the motions relating to Defence, Education, Science and Arts, Employment, Energy, Environment Foreign Affairs, Home Affairs, Industry and Trade, Social Services, Transport, Treasury and Civil Service, Scottish Affairs and Welsh Affairs.

DEFENCE

Ordered,
That Sir Frederic Bennett, Mr. John Cartwright, Mr. Bernard Conlan, Mr. Bruce George, Dr. John Gilbert, Sir Timothy Kitson, Sir John Langford-Holt, Mr. Allen McKay, Mr. Michael Mates, Mr. Cranley Onslow, and Mr. Patrick Wall be members of the Defence Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND ARTS

Ordered,
That Mr. Timothy Brinton, Mr. Patrick Cormack, Mr. Harry Greenway, Mr. David Madel, Mr. John McWilliam, Mr. John Osborn, Mr. Christopher Price, Mr. Dafydd Thomas, and Mr. Stan Thorne be members of the Education, Science and Arts Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

EMPLOYMENT

Ordered,
That Mr. Jonathan Aitken, Mr. Andrew Bowden, Mr. Jim Craigen, Mr. John Golding, Mr. John Gorst, Mr. Raymond Powell, Mr. Giles Radice, Mr. John Townend, and Mr. Keith Wickenden, be members of the Employment Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

ENERGY

Ordered,
That Mr. Michael Ancram, Mr. David Crouch, Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies, Mr. Michael Latham, Mr. Ted Leadbitter, Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd, Mr. Ian Lloyd, Mr. Arthur Palmer, Mr. Peter Rost, Mr. David Stoddart, and Mr. Edwin Wainwright, be members of the Energy Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

ENVIRONMENT

Ordered,
That Mr. Donald Anderson, Mr. David Atkinson, Mr. Frank Dobson, Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann, Mr. Jim Marshall, Dr. Brian Mawhinney, Mr. Norman Miscampbell, Mr. Nicholas Scott, Mr. Robin Squire, Mr. Malcolm Thornton, and Mr. David Winnick, be members of the Environment Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Ordered,
That Miss Betty Boothroyd, Mr. Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler, Mr. Eric Deakins, Mr. Anthony Grant, Mr. Eldon Griffiths, Mr. Frank Hooley, Mr. Anthony Kershaw, Mr. Kevin McNamara, Mr. Peter Mills, Sir Anthony Royle, and Mr. Nigel Spearing, be members of the Foreign Affairs Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

HOME AFFAIRS

Ordered,
That Mr. Arthur Davidson, Mr. George Gardiner, Mr. John Hunt, Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk, Mrs. Jill Knight, Mr. Alexander Lyon, Mr. R. Graham Page, Miss Jo Richardson, Mr. William Waldegrave, Mr. John Wheeler, and Mr. Phillip Whitehead, be members of the Home Affairs Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

INDUSTRY AND TRADE

Ordered,
That Mr. Kenneth Carlisle, Mr. Eric Cockeram, Mr. Stan Crowther, Mr. Peter Emery, Mr. Derek Foster, Sir Donald Kaberry, Mr. Russell Kerr, Mr. Thomas McNally, Mr. Robin


Maxwell-Hyslop, Mr. Ian Mikardo, and Mr. Donald Thompson, be members of the Industry and Trade Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

SOCIAL SERVICES

Ordered,
That Mr. David Ennals, Mrs. Sheila Faith, Mr. Frank Field, Mr. Ralph Howell, Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies, Sir Brandon Rhys Williams, Mrs. Renée Short, Mr. William Whitlock, and Mr. Nicholas Winterton, be members of the Social Services Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: For the convenience of the House, I propose to put motions 13 and 14 together.

TRANSPORT

Ordered,
That Mr. Sydney Bidwell, Mr. Tom Bradley, Mr. Neil Carmichael, Mr. Robin F. Cook, Mr. Harry Cowans, Mr. Stephen Dorrell, Mr. Denshore Dover, Mr. Peter Fry, Mr. George Porter, Mr. David Price, and Mr. Gary Waller, be members of the Transport Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

Division No. 113
AYES
[11.58 pm


Alexander, Richard
Eyre, Reginald
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)


Ancram, Michael
Fairgrieve, Russell
McQuarrie, Albert


Ashton, Joe
Faith, Mrs Sheila
McWilliam, John


Aspinwall, Jack
Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Major, John


Atkins, Robert (Preston North)
Fisher, Sir Nigel
Mawhinney, Dr Brian


Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Fookes, Miss Janet
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin


Banks, Robert
Forman, Nigel
Mellor, David


Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Meyer, Sir Anthony


Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)
Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove &amp; Redditch)


Berry, Hon Anthony
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Mills, Iain (Meriden)


Best, Keith
Golding, John
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)


Bevan, David Gilroy
Gorst, John
Mudd, David


Blackburn, John
Gow, Ian
Murphy, Christopher


Boscawen, Hon Robert
Gower, Sir Raymond
Myles, David


Bowden, Andrew
Grieve, Percy
Neale, Gerrard


Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Nelson, Anthony


Bray, Dr Jeremy
Gummer, John Selwyn
Neubert, Michael


Bright, Graham
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Newton, Tony


Brinton, Tim
Haselhurst, Alan
Normanton, Tom


Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Hawksley, Warren
Page, John (Harrow, West)


Brooke, Hon Peter
Heddle, John
Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)


Brotherton, Michael
Hicks, Robert
Parris, Matthew


Cadbury, Jocelyn
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Patten, Christopher (Bath)


Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Patten, John (Oxford)


Chapman, Sydney
Hooson, Tom
Pawsey, James


Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Hunt, David (Wirral)
Pollock, Alexander


Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)


Colvin, Michael
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Rathbone, Tim


Cope, John
Jessel, Toby
Renton, Tim


Costain, A. P.
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)


Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)
Knox, David
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy


Crouch, David
Lamont, Norman
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman


Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)
Lang, Ian
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)


Dormand, Jack
Lawrence, Ivan
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)


Dorrell, Stephen
Lee, John
Short, Mrs Renée


Dover, Denshore
Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Sims, Roger


du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Skeet, T. H. H.


Duffy, A. E. P.
Lyell, Nicholas
Speller, Tony


Emery, Peter
Macfarlane, Neil
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)


English, Michael
MacGregor, John
Sproat, Iain


Evans, John (Newton)
MacKay, John (Argyll)
Squire, Robin

TREASURY AND CIVIL SERVICE

Ordered,
That Mr. Kenneth Baker, Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark, Dr. Jeremy Bray, Mr. Edward du Cann, Mr. Timothy Eggar, Mr. Michael English, Mr. Terence L. Higgins, Mr. Robert Sheldon, Mr. Richard Shepherd, Mr. Richard Wainwright, and Mr. Ken Woolmer, be members of the Treasury and Civil Service Committee.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

SCOTTISH AFFAIRS

Ordered,
That Mr. Norman Buchan, Mr. Donald Dewar, Mr. Peter Fraser, Mr. Barry Henderson, Mr. Norman Hogg, Mr. John Home Robertson, Mr. Robert Hughes, Mr. Ian Lang, Mr. Albert McQuarrie, Mr. Martin O'Neill, Mr. Alex Pollock, Mr. Iain Sproat and Mr. Allan Stewart, be members of the Committee on Scottish Affairs.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

WELSH AFFAIRS

Motion made, and Question put,
That Mr. Keith Best be a member of the Committee on Welsh Affairs.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

The House divided: Ayes 141. Noes 17.

Stevens, Martin
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Wheeler, John


Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Wickenden, Keith


Stradling Thomas, J.
Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Young, Sir George (Acton)


Tebbit, Norman
Waddington, David



Temple-Morris, Peter
Waidegrave, Hon William
TELLERS FOR THE AYES


Thompson, Donald
Walker, Bill (Perth &amp; E Perthshire)
Mr. Carol Mather and


Thornton, Malcolm
Waller, Gary
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton




NOES


Beith, A. J.
Howella, Geraint
Skinner, Dennis


Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Soley, Clive


Canavan, Dennis
Parry, Robert
Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)


Cryer, Bob
Penhaligon, David



Dobson, Frank
Rooker, J. W.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Mr. Dafydd Wigley and


Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Sheerman, Barry
Mr. Gordon Wilson

Question accordingly agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: It follows from the result of that vote that the amendment to leave out "Mr. Keith Best" falls.

Ordered,
That Mr. Keith Best be a member of the Committee on Welsh Affairs.

Ordered,
That, Mr. Ioan Evans, Sir Raymond Gower, Mr. Tom Hooson, Mr. Geraint Howells, Mr. Roy Hughes, Sir Anthony Meyer, Mr. Geraint Morgan, Dr. Roger Thomas, Mr. Alan Williams, and Mr. Delwyn Williams, be members of the Committee on Welsh Affairs.—[Mr. Philip Holland.]

PSYCHO-GERIATRIC SERVICES (EAST SURREY)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Cope.]

Mr. George Gardiner: I wish to raise on the Adjournment the question of the psycho-geriatric services in the East Surrey health district. I should begin by explaining that the East Surrey health district covers the southern part of my own constituency. It also serves the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorking (Mr. Wickenden) and that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe). I know that they are equally concerned about the situation that I am about to outline.
The psycho-geriatric service to which I am referring is the in-patient facility at Netherne hospital, in my constituency. In Netherne there are now 15 wards in the psycho-geriatric area, accommodating 407 elderly patients. Three of the

wards are allocated to patients from the London borough of Sutton, and beds in the remaining wards include those allotted to patients from outside the East Surrey health district, namely, from Crawley and Horsham.
In this short debate I shall refer only to the crisis over admissions that has arisen in the East Surrey health district. The best way to draw my hon. Friend the Minister's attention to this matter is to cite the cases and examples that have been brought to my notice.
The first arose when a man and his wife visited my weekend constituency surgery to tell me of their experience prior to the admission of the man's father to Netherne hospital. This elderly man, who was 81, had lived with the couple for 18 years, but last year he had become demented and developed into a serious case. Numerous doctors had recommended his admission to hospital as an urgent case, but because of the dire shortage of beds he could not be admitted.
The experience of the couple went from bad to worse. The old man was still very heavy and strong. He began undressing himself at will in front of their children, urinating in saucepans and creating havoc in his bed. The only way in which the couple could keep him in bed was to tie him to the bed with ropes, much to the surprise and alarm of the community nurse when she visited them. She persuaded them to untie him. They did so and the subsequent weekend he fell out of bed six times. On each occasion the ambulance service had to be summoned in order to lift him back into bed. Finally, he was admitted to Netherne hospital and was found to be suffering from bronchial pneumonia. I shall call him Mr. T.
The next case is that of Mrs. P. She is 89 and lives on her own. Some months ago it was adjuged necessary to admit her to Netherne hospital, but no bed could be found for her. After a period she locked herself in her flat and refused to admit the doctor, the psychiatric nurse, the social worker or relatives. Clearly she was adjudged a danger to herself as long as she remained in the flat alone. Eventually the community nurse gained admission but, to my knowledge, a bed has still not been found for that woman in Netherne hospital.
The third case is particularly serious. It concerns an old lady living by herself in a small flat in a block allocated to elderly people, some of whom are blind. This old lady, living alone, is doubly incontinent and has no awareness of what she is doing. She spends her whole day moving around her flat in the mess that she has created. She suffers from severe hallucinations, insisting that her husband is there in the flat. She carries on conversations with him, although he died nine years ago. When her sister was dying earlier this year she had no idea who the woman was.
She has been adjudged a danger to others in the block since she is likely to dry her sodden underwear over a naked gas flame. On occasions, she has been known to burn holes in them. On one occasion her son-in-law visited her and found all four gas taps turned on, all unlit. In consequence, he arranged to have the gas supply cut off. As a result, this old lady, Mrs. K., now lives in a totally unheated flat. Her son-in-law believes that their only hope for her to be granted a bed in Netherne hospital, after repeated refusals because one is not available, is that as a result of living in the unheated flat she might develop pneumonia and be taken into hospital for proper care.
Those are three cases that have been brought to my attention. Others have been brought to my attention by the authorities in Netherne hospital, who are only too aware of the problems of having to refuse beds to patients who are a danger to themselves and to those around them.
The fourth case concerns Mr. B., aged 70, who wanders around uncontrolled day and night. He has been known to try to

light his open fire with a can of petrol and he regularly swallows his medication in one go. As in the other cases, he is incontinent.
I would hope that it is obvious that there is a dire need in the East Surrey health district arising from patients in this psycho-geriatric state which Netherne hospital finds itself unable to meet. I emphasise that I cast no aspersions on the hospital staff. Its consultant psychiatrists and all the medical and nursing staff I have met lean over backwards to provide the best service that they can and to take in as many cases as they can find room for. Considering the circumstances under which they work, their morale is high. However, that cannot get around the fact that the hospital has too few beds to take in elderly people who are in urgent need of admission. That arises in part from the difficulty of recruiting staff on the fringe of London, just one or two miles beyond the band where the London weighting for nursing staff applies. That means a difference of about £4 per week.
It also arises from the economies that the hospital has been forced to make following overspending on its nursing budget. The overspending resulted from the shortage of staff, as that entailed paying more than is desirable in overtime rates. Therefore, in the five-month period ending on 31 August, the nursing budget at Netherne was overspent by about £52,000. If underspending on the learner budget is taken into account, the figure comes down to just over £30,000.
Instructions were issued to eliminate the overspending figure. To achieve that, it was necessary to cut the number of nurses from October to the end of the current financial year by 15. Under that arrangement, psycho-geriatric nursing suffered a reduction in establishment of six nurses, at a time when existing staff were stretched to the utmost to cover the wards. Therefore, it was decided to close two wards—one of them a psycho-geriatric ward. That resulted in a loss of 15 beds for patients in my district. The price of that contraction in terms of suffering is all too clear from the tragic cases that I have cited.
I know that the hospital authorities are doing their utmost to squeeze in every case that they can, but it is the old story that one cannot put a quart into a pint pot.
The crisis over admissions has been building up over a number of years and is but one part of a situation that is becoming acute throughout Surrey. Part of the difficulty is lack of funding. As long ago as 1976, the area health authority raised with the then Secretary of State the utter inadequacy of resources allocated for nursing the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped in Surrey.
For historical reasons, a substantial number of psychiatric hospitals were built in the green fields south of London instead of within the capital, so that we have a concentration of such hospitals not found in many other parts of the country. That circumstance has never been adequately recognised by successive Governments.
When measured against national norms, Surrey is 1,150 nurses short in the mental handicap division and 620 short in the mental illness division, which relates directly to the local situation that I am raising.
The effects of inadequate funding are accentuated by the high cost of obtaining any sort of accommodation in Surrey, which is proving a strong deterrent to recruiting nurses from other parts of the country. The accommodation factor was identified as being particularly applicable in the East Surrey health district by the area nursing officer in an urgent report to the area health authority in the summer.
I have also seen evidence that the staffing levels accepted as adequate at Netherne are below those of most other psychiatric hospitals in the South-West Thames health region. That, of course, has an effect on the morale of staff and on further recruitment.
I have been shown comparative figures showing the ratio of nursing staff to the number of patients in psychiatric hospitals throughout the region, and they suggest that Netherne is near the bottom of the league. Given that such a high proportion of Netherne's patients are psycho-geriatrics with such high levels of dependence for feeding, dressing and dealing with incontinence, that helps further to explain the admission crisis that has arisen at the hospital.
I suggest to my hon. Friend the Minister that the lack of suitable hospital accommodation for psycho-geriatrics in

advanced states of dementia has become more serious in the East Surrey health district than in most other parts of the country, that the number of beds in the hospital is utterly inadequate to meet the needs of the district, that this places an impossible burden on families forced to nurse demented relatives awaiting admission, that that amounts to positive cruelty to those living alone after their minds have gone, that it is high time that the funded staff establishment at Netherne be reviewed to bring it into line with the funded establishments at other psychiatric hospitals in the region, that if present staffing levels are to continue it will inevitably be necessary to review the hospital's role in providing beds for psycho-geriatric patients from Sutton—outside the health district—and that more thought must be given at the highest levels to ways of attracting more nursing staff to psychiatric and mental handicap hospitals throughout Surrey.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Sir George Young): My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) has eloquently described a number of shortcomings in services for the elderly severely mentally infirm in his constituency which rightly give cause for concern. He has substantiated his case with several worrying, moving stories. I shall attempt to deal with his points specifically, but it is first necessary to set them in context. This, as successive Administrations have acknowledged, is a Cinderella service, and its problems are being aggravated by the pressure of demographic change.
There are now about 8 million people aged 65 and over in Great Britain, nearly 15 per cent. of the total population. In 1946, there were less than 4½ million—10 per cent. of the population. More importantly, between now and the end of this century the number of people aged over 75 is expected to increase by nearly one-third, and those over 85 by nearly two-thirds. The estimated prevalence of dementia in these very elderly groups is high—13 per cent. for the 75-plus and 22 per cent. for the 80-plus. Research suggests that there are at present about 700,000 people in England suffering from some degree of dementia. Some 13,500 of these are estimated to be in hospital. If


it is assumed that their hospital costs are proportional to numbers, this gives a revenue cost for hospital care of about £76 million. That is the size of the problem and it is a growing one.
Most elderly people with mental illness or infirmity are, of course, living in the community, and it is right that they should continue to do so for as long as possible. Where hospital admission becomes necessary, our policy is that they should be admitted in the first instance to an acute psychiatric unit in a general hospital for assessment, diagnosis and short-term treatment. Longer-term hospital care where needed should, in the new pattern of services, be provided mainly in relatively small, local hospitals serving their own communities. That is the policy. The reality is rather different and, as we have heard from my hon. Friend, we still have a long way to go. However, we are making progress.
In 1976 about 90 per cent. of all mental illness patients were in traditional psychiatric hospitals, but since the number of such residents reflects outmoded patterns of patient care this is not a very good indicator of current practice. Between 1974 and 1976 the percentage of admissions of patients with dementia to mental illness hospitals fell from 82 per cent. to 78 per cent. and that to general hospital units increased from 11 per cent. to 15 per cent. The number of patients aged 65 and over in mental illness hospitals and units is declining steadily. It fell by 17 per cent. between 1969 and 1977. At the same time, between 1972 and 1976 the number of those admitted to hospital with dementia increased by 11 per cent. and those discharged by 20 per cent. This reflects an increasingly active pattern of treatment—a move away from custodial care towards rehabilitation back in the community. We have also seen an important development in the day care of elderly mentally ill patients. Those aged 65 and over attending psychiatric day hospitals increased during this period by 28 per cent. The increasing use of community psychiatric nurses is also having an impact on services for the elderly mentally ill.
Nationally, we are taking steps to increase the availability of manpower—consultants, registrars, house officers and so on—to tackle the growing demand.

We have heard in particular about the problem of shortage of nurses in my hon. Friend's constituency and I do not underestimate the seriousness of that problem. Nationally, however, there has been a steady increase in nursing staff in mental illness hospitals since 1969—in all some 38 per cent. We are now well ahead of the target set in the White Paper "Better Services for the Mentally Ill" of a nurse-patient ratio of 1:3. There was, in 1976, a ratio overall of 1 nurse to 1·76 patients. There are, of course, wide regional variations, with some places still well below target.
That is the national picture, and it sets our policies in context. I will now turn to the situation in East Surrey health district. Services for the elderly severely mentally infirm in this district are provided at Netheme hospital, which has about 1,000 beds, and houses for the most part long-stay mentally ill patients. Netherne also has an annexe a few miles away, Clerk's Croft, near Bletchingley, which provides about another 100 beds. It is at Netherne and Clerk's Croft where in-patient services for the elderly severely mentally infirm are provided. There are 15 wards at Netherne accommodating about 400 patients. Some patients suffering from dementia are also at Clerk's Croft, mainly the more ambulant and less dependent ones.
My hon. Friend has described in some detail the problems besetting Netherne at the moment. The health authority acknowledges that it has a long way to go before it has the pattern of service that I described earlier. This is the long-term problem. But it is aggravated at the moment by a shorter-term problem with which I shall deal first.
I do not think that I need to dwell on the financial difficulties that health authorities are facing this year and the reasons for them. They will be well known to my hon. Friend. The entire NHS is facing rising costs which are largely the result of the policies of our predecessors. They did not make adequate provision for these increases when they set health authorities' cash limits, and we have reluctantly had to conclude that we cannot do so this year either. If our public expenditure policy—and our wider economic policy—is to have any chance of success, health authorities must remain within their cash limits, which are


an integral part of this policy. We have, therefore, said that no extra money can be made available this year, and most health authorities are having to make savings to remain within their cash limts. We have urged them to cut out the waste which inevitably occurs in any large organisation and to exploit to the full the scope for making better use of resources in fuel and energy, catering and domestic services, consumables, and administrative overheads. Unfortunately, some authorities, such as Surrey, have found that the necessary savings cannot be made by these means alone, and there have had to be some reductions in patient services. I am assured that the Surrey AHA gave very careful consideration to the economies that it needed to make, based on full reports from each health district, and that it has exhausted the potential for savings in the areas that I have described.
A quick look at the financial situation in the East Surrey district gives an idea of the order of the savings that have to be made. In 1978–79 the district overspent its budget by about £400,000, which has had to be carried forward to this year. On top of this, the budget for the current year was already overspent by £145,000 in August, and this included overspending of the nursing budget at Netherne to the tune of £30,000. As there is no spare money that can be diverted to the budget, the district has had to take steps to rectify this overspending. This has meant reducing by 15 the number of nurses at Netherne from October until the end of the financial year. Six of these 15 have come from the wards for the elderly severely mentally infirm. These wards were poorly staffed, and this further reduction made the burden on the remaining nurses too great.
To alleviate the burden a little and to maximise the use of skilled staff, two wards—one for the elderly severely mentally infirm—were closed and the patients moved into vacant beds in other wards. This, of course, has meant a reduction in the number of beds for the elderly severely mentally infirm at Netherne and has added to the waiting list. The position is, however, expected to improve at the end of this financial year, when it seems likely that the nursing budget will be back in balance. It will then be possible to increase the number of staff to the pre-October level,

although restrictions on overtime may need to remain. The AHA very much hopes, therefore, that the present deficiencies in services for the elderly severely mentally infirm should be removed to a significant extent next year.
My hon. Friend has also referred to the recruitment difficulties at Netherne. This is, indeed, another of the hospital's problems. I am told that the difficulty here is mainly in recruiting learners, of whom there are at present only 82 in post, whereas the funded establishment is for 94. One of the reasons for this difficulty is, of course, the high cost of property in the area and the relatively low level of rented accommodation. There is accommodation for nurses at Netherne, but the district's financial position has prevented it from maintaining it at the standards it would like. Another factor special to Netherne is that the hospital falls just outside the area which attracts London weighting, whereas Cane Hill hospital, another mental illness hospital nearby, comes within the London weighting area. I am told that there is not the same difficulty in recruiting the more senior nurses, such as charge nurses and nursing officers, and this is probably due to the very good reputation which Netherne has gained in the recent past.
The health authority acknowledges that it has a long way to go before it is providing a satisfactory district-based community service as an alternative to institutional care. The development of a community-based service for the elderly severely mentally infirm is necessarily linked with the development of such a service for all mentally ill patients and the gradual movement away from total reliance on in-patient care at Netherne. The health authority has already made some progress in the development of community services. There is, for instance, a total of 150 day places for the mentally ill in the district which are also available to elderly severely mentally infirm, and these are not all concentrated at Netherne but are spread around the district—indeed, only 20 are at Netherne itself, with 60 in the grounds of Clerk's Croft, 40 at Reigate and another 30 at the industrial unit at Redhill. Day provision then is much more integrated into the community and accessible for clients than is in-patient provision. The district plans improvements to its day patient provision which


will include both additional places and the replacement of existing facilities, in particular those at Clerk's Croft, by improved centres. The district also recognises the need for separate day centre provision for the elderly severely mentally infirm.
Coming back to Netherne, one of the district's priority objectives there is to increase the number of nurses. I have explained already that the severity of the present nursing shortage will be alleviated next year. There will still, however, be a significant shortage of nurses, not only in East Surrey district but throughout the area. The obstacle here of course is one of money. At its present level, the district's budget is committed fully to the maintenance of existing services. The only way it could significantly improve nurse staffing levels for services for the elderly severely mentally infirm would be to divert resources from other areas of patient care. As I have already explained, whilst there is no scope for improvement this year, next year's cash limits will put right the effects of this year's squeeze, and there will also be a small allowance for real growth. As the resources become available, modest improvements can be made.
One of the obstacles to a community service is the extent to which Netherne has responsibilities outside the district. Of the 400 patients there, about 90 come from the Sutton area, about 30 from around Horsham and Crawley, and about another 150 originally had their homes outside the district in places such as Epsom, Surbiton and Wimbledon—in

other words, a minority. To be successful, a community service needs in-patient facilities near people's homes, otherwise patients lose contact with the community and cannot easily return to it. Furthermore, if reliance on institutional care is to be reduced, community services for patients coming to Netherne from outside the district will, of course, need to be provided in their own areas, and it is understandably difficult to get other authorities to take on a new responsibility for patients for whom they have not hitherto had to provide.
Looking ahead, there are other improvements included in the district's plans. It is hoped in the not too distant future to complete the transfer of wards for the elderly severely mentally infirm at Netherne to the ground floor. In the longer term, a later phase of the new district general hospital on which work has already started at Redhill will provide an acute psychiatric unit which will also cater for the elderly severely mentally infirm.
I realise that what I have been able to say to my hon. Friend tonight is not a complete answer to the problems he has described. However, I hope that I have been able to reassure him somewhat about the present temporary difficulties and that he can see now some grounds for optimism for the future.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes to One o'clock.